Choices

[Beatnory]

 This isn't really interesting, but I love to know how you think about it.


Choices, it is something that we all want and already have.
We can choose how we are and we can also choose what kind of drink we want, or what kind of clothes we want to wear. In the westerns country's there become more and more chooses. Bigger stores with more stuff to choose of but also people get more freedom to choose how they are.


Because of all those possibility’s of things you would expect that we will be happier. We can choose what we like, something that makes us, us. But I think the opposite. I think that we will be more unhappy if we have to many chooses. I will explain why.
It is impossible (or hard) to find something that is perfect. What chose you will make you never will have something what where looking for. We as people think that there was a perfect choose. After making one we will know that it isn't perfect. The only one how to blame for this is yourself because your the one how made this choose in the past.
it also brings stress with it because imagine if you make the wrong choice.

What do you think? Agree? Disagree? Why? How are your thought about this?

[anoni]

  I agree. Actually, there was a study done a while ago about this. They got a bunch of people and for some they gave them a prize, A or B, for others they let them choose which prize they had. They found that the people who were had their prize chosen for them were generally happier than the people who had to choose. It's the idea of control and blame, we always like to have control, but when we have control we gain responsibility and responsibility and cause stress. Also we have people continually asking themselves 'What if" in past scenarios, "What if I did this" it makes them think they have lost a really good cause.
 
   Another interesting thing about choice, is whether free will actually exists. The idea is, what defines us as human beings? What makes us unique? Well, I believe it comes down to two things, genetics and environment. The genetics make up your initial conditions, who you are when you born, this is carried on from your parents and their parents and their parents, all the way to a possible common ancestor. Then there's environment, society, relationships, people, school, stuff like that which changes your personality and influences you in the most subtly ways. These things are what make us unique, so thinking isn't exactly what makes us unique. When we make a choice, why do we make that choice? You're on the internet right now, but why are you on the internet? Why don't you just randomly go out on the street naked and run around? Why do you go to school? Why do you go to work? Why do you do anything? It's all because of the environment and your genetics, you do these things to make you happy and doing things to make you happy is more instincts. It makes you happy because of the environment around you, your relationships with people and how society dictates what you should and shouldn't do and whether you should or shouldn't have a successful life.
 
   Everything we do is so heavily influenced by our instinctive genetics and the environment around us, how can we really have free will in the sense that we make choices completely on our own? I believe we don't have much free will, if any at all, our choices are dictated by those around us and those before us. We are also what creates the environment and our influence changes peoples views too, so we are a slave to something we define. It's an interesting concept to think about.
 
 

[Beatnory]

This is indeed a interesting thing.

if your right and somebody can take controll of the "environment around us" then he or she would have great powers. it's almost dangers.
we are easily controlled. and probably nobody will stop it.
sounds a bit scary

[Otebon Albrecht]

Finally got around to reading this thread, and I agree, it's an interesting topic. Guess I'll take up the other side of the coin and play Devil's Advocate, shall I?

I disagree with Anoni. Although it may be true that people that have their path (or prize as used by the experiment) chosen for them are generally happier than people that choose their own, I still believe in Free Will. I will not deny that there are those that are more than happy subsisting and being told what to do (in my opinion, these people are little more than sheep and deserve to be led due to their unwillingness to take control of their own lives and take a stand, but that is a bit beside the point) there are those that DO choose what they will do in their lives and accept the responsibility with great joy. Those that take control and gain responsibility (to reinforce the words you used in your first paragraph) accept the stress as a known byproduct and use that to fuel their continued pursuits. These people are the leaders of our society as they have the ability and have accepted the responsibility of not being the ones led around by others.

To move to your second paragraph, I feel that I've already stated my opinion on Free Will but I feel that your question about what defines us as human beings is a bit misplaced. Although I can't deny that genetics play a massive part in human behavior (if a single molecule is misplaced in the brain anything from death to retardation to personality modification is possible which is all controlled by a series of biochemical functions that all tie back to our Double-Helix DNA) and that our surroundings have no small part in our outlooks and attitudes, I feel that there is a third part: the Soul.

You make the comical statement "You're on the internet right now" which must be true as I have read your post and responded (troll) but then proceed to ask the question "why are you on the internet?" You state that I am on the internet because of my genetics and my society dictates that I do what makes me happy and that it is something I should do (to extrapolate from your given data). I would like to think that I am on the internet because I choose to do so.

I have accepted responsibilities and duties such as to keep my mental state within a healthy level so that I can be happy and productive, to moderate this forum to the best of my abilities, to better myself and become as close to perfect as I can as Otebon Albrecht, and because I have those responsibilities I have the ability to choose to follow them. So I find myself on the internet reading and responding to your post.

I agree with your last statement to a degree, but overall I must say I disagree. I cannot, in good consciousness, say that Free Will is the penultimate deciding factor in sentient life. That statement is simply too easy to refute with items like the Fight or Flight Response or involuntary actions. However, I believe that Free Will is something that we, as sentient life, have the ability to use at our discretion.

If our genetics and environment were the only, or overriding powerful, forces that controlled us, then I must pose the question why do people choose to do themselves harm? Their genetics is centered around the continuation of their species and the protection of their body and society, even throughout history, has rarely had a more than disgusted outlook on self harm of any sort. Although the probability that everyone will suddenly stampede the streets wearing nothing but a smile is infinitely minuscule, the probability that someone will do something to hurt themself or do something that will damage their futures for no better reason than "just because" is fairly high. To try and get away from the more sobering possibilities, focus on people that acquire body jewelry in highly visible areas like the tongue or nose? How about those that split their tongues so that they look like serpents? That pain is for no better reason that it looks "cool" by a minority of a society and such a deviation from the norm will probably injure their chances later in life.

To return to the original topic, of choices making people happy or unhappy, I feel that it isn't a question about whether or not choices make people happy or not. I feel that the true question is the number of choices that make people unhappy. Our world, especially in the "West" is growing exponentially. Every day a whole new series of choices and responsibilities is being thrown at every one of us as fast as technology can make them and people can try to sell them. The reason many may feel depressed due to freedoms is that they are being overwhelmed and find it easier to just let themselves be led. It's an ugly cycle as more and more responsibilities are offered and soon even the most stalwart defenders of Free Will will begin to feel the toll of choice.

To be offered a choice is freedom, in my opinion. To give me a choice is to offer me happiness as it lets me pick my own path. However, if you bombard me with choices and it becomes just too much... therein lies the problem.


Sorry if I sound aggressive in this... I kinda got into it and loved to get back into the realm of debate. Sorry Anoni! 

[anoni]

  I do not disagree that people who have a choice can have joy, but as I said it's about control and responsibility. I was thinking, when I made that post, that there would be a fine line that would be best for some people on a graph between the amount of control and responsibility you have. We like having control and lots of it, but as I said with control there is responsibility and sometimes we like responsibility (just as we sometimes like no control) but generally responsibility can be quite a stressful thing. There is a point, I believe, of "balance" between control and responsibility that is best for someone and makes them the happiest they are, this is different for different people. I would think you could relate to the negative consequences of too much choice, especially when it concerns choice on somebody else's life, or choice on a grand scale. This is the responsibility, too much responsibility causes stress, to little control causes the feeling of insignificance, I believe we have to find a balance.

  So lets talk about freewill, consciousness and the brain. Something you mentioned, a third part "the soul". Well, I disagree with the existence of the soul, one of the reasons is because I have not really been able to get a structured definition of it.  The soul becomes a wishy washy argument in itself, what is the soul? You could say "it's what defines every individual as themselves" but that's just the consequences of having a soul, you have to pose the question "what actually is the soul?" We are under the general idea of a soul, or a spirit, but can you really define a soul, in a way that makes sense with the rest of the argument? What would make the soul different from the genetics you are born with? Does the soul change? How does a soul define a human differently than the environment and the genetics of the human?

  As for you being on the internet, you state you accept the responsibilities of having them, so you never actually really refer to yourself as choosing them, even in your statement of the word "accept" it gives the idea that they are there and you have learned to "live with the idea" of trying to be happy. You have to ask yourself, why are you a moderator? the sense of duty and authority makes you happy. Why do you want to be happy? Because it feels good. Why does it feel good? Because your body releases natural endorphins and other "feel good" hormones. Why does your body do that? Because it is in your DNA which comes from your genetics. The question of "Why does a sense of duty and authority make you happy?" Goes in the other direction, where you are taught from society that duty and authority is good, it is your environment that influences whether you are happy.

  Now to answer a question you posed, "Why do people harm themselves?". I don't really understand how this is actually a concern, it's all about the genetics and environment still. I think, in your statement, you considered both genetics and environment to be "perfect entities", but that's wrong, you could have bad genetics and you could live in a bad environment. People with a genetic disposition to hurt themselves, or have birth defects,(these defects are due to the environment altering the genetic code before birth) will hurt themselves because they get a certain sensation out of it, they way up the odds (or maybe not) and are still a slave to their genetic code, in fact, someone hurting themselves due to a genetic disposition could be considered evidence for how powerful genetics can be in terms of free will, that someone with some screwed up code could hurt themselves on purpose. As for people getting piercings, it's the same thing, they were taught by either their friends, relatives, the media or their idols, through direct or indirect means, that piercings were good. That they were cool, they have a sense of identification, belonging or respect by getting those piercings. No one (without a mental defect) would get a piercing if they thought piercings were stupid and there was no reason (generated by their environment) for them to get one. I would also like to remind you that choices change over time, if someone got a piercing, then regrets getting it, he thought it would be a good thing to do at the time, he doesn't think that way anymore, but either way he still did it because he thought it was good and he thought it was good for some reason in the environment.

  For your last paragraph, refer to my first paragraph. Oh and Otebon you didn't sound aggressive at all! We're having a debate It's fun