Hating humanity is silly, we are all human after all
and yes there are a LOT of stupid people out there, but there are a lot of good people also, and I firmly believe there are more good people than bad people, its just the bad people scream louder...
and to Teiko I will point out people DO ask those questions, hell, you asked them in that very post. not everyone does, but a lot of people do, and even those who don't pay attention when new things are discovered in those area's.
The issue is that there are a small number of vocal morons, and an annoying percentage of them end up in a position of power. why? hey, this is a forum not an essay on politics! that would take far too long to go into now.
But the thing that proves to me humanity is a force for good on average is our literature and TV, there are very few TV shows where being an asshole is shown as the "Right" thing to do, and so many where friendship, goodness, honesty, etc, are said to be important.*
What I dislike about the argument of "Oh I hate humans" and such, is that most of the time you're not really saying you hate humans.
Like, it's self-serving bias right, when someone says "I hate all humans" they're really saying "I hate the people I disagree with", like your friends are humans and they're fine, you're a human and your fine, but that guy that does something you don't like? He's bad and people like him are bad and therefore humans are bad. I believe that anytime you say "I hate humans", you CANNOT think that you are SEPARATE from humans, because you are a human. When you say "Humans are evil" you have to think YOU are evil, because you are a human.
If you don't believe you are evil and you don't believe that everything you've just said about humans can be equally applied to you, then you should more correctly specify the group you hate, rather than humanity in general. For example, instead of saying "I hate humans" you could more correctly say "I hate people who abuse animals", but that's just an example.
And to be perfectly honest, saying you hate humans is basically bigotry and stereotyping. You are generalizing a HUGE (literally the largest) group of people and generalization leads to significant problems like discrimination and unwarranted hate.
Our cause is the wild. We believe that we all, humankind and animals, have a future together. We believe in a world that we can share, a world where all our wild species can make a comeback. And we believe that for this future to become a reality, one species must lead us there....ours.
It is a noble goal sure, but the fact is there is only one species preventing it in the first place and that is ours.
By "you" I mean people who do say that in general, not you specifically :P
Comment on the original post:
I don't believe the media enforces the idea that we are "Absolute good", especially how the media frequently features stories on how people can be bad, such as ISIS, terrorist organizations, wars, war crimes and so forth. There are also plenty of movies where humans are seen as the bad guys, Avatar, District 9 and even Bambi to name a few. So no, I don't believe the media paints a portrait of humans as absolutely good.
A common thing in movies is that they try to appeal to the lowest common denominator, they want the movie to be easily understood and satisfying to as many people as possible (as they can make more money this way). So a complex moral framework isn't gonna be very great for your summer blockbusters or casual games like Kid Icarus. But that's fine in a way, these movies and games aren't designed to make you think about philosophy and morality, they're designed to be an entertaining ride, which is probably why most people love it, is because they see it as an entertaining ride, rather than a real statement on humanity and society. So I would wager the reason people love Kid Icarus is not because they agree with the sentiment that humans are absolute good, but it's more that they haven't even really considered it, they enjoyed the characters, the story and the ride of the game, they didn't really take note of any message behind it or at least didn't get the same message as you did.
So no, I think you're wrong when you say movies that portray humans as good are unhateable. As for Kid Icarus, I mean, you say people love it because it portrays humans as good and the enemy as bad, but have you ever considered that people might just like it cause it's a fun game?
EDIT: Also while you might not relate to humans (How do you not relate to humans? You're a human, again, this is just you separating yourself from the rest of species, trying to say you're "different", but in reality you're just saying "I don't relate to people who abuse animals" or "I don't relate to the people I disagree with", stop using humans as such a general term because YOU'RE a human and you can't escape that) most people do and movies are made with most people in mind xD
I'll admit, it might just be me and I look for it more than most people do, but still, it feels like I see anti-environmental messages and pro-"humans are the absolute good" messages a lot.
QuoteI'll admit, it might just be me and I look for it more than most people do, but still, it feels like I see anti-environmental messages and pro-"humans are the absolute good" messages a lot.
A self-confirming statement, the reason you see more "humans are the absolute good" messages much more than most people is the fact that you actively look for them. For example, the movies and games you suggested.
Pokemon: I've never played the specific game you're referring to, but I do know one of the primary antagonists in the pokemon universe is Team Rocket, who in the lore act as pokemon poachers. IE: The main bad guys in most pokemon games are people who are abusing pokemon, not people who love pokemon and nature. I have no idea about the world ends with you.
While "The Grey" does depict wolves as the primary antagonist, the movie makes a point that the reason the wolves are attacking is because the humans are in their territory, not because they are inherently humans. Also a lot of the humans within that movie do acts that would not be considered good and these acts are highlighted, including robbing dead bodies.
I still think you are over-generalizing humans as a whole and separating yourself from the rest of the species, which is bad for reasons I've stated before.
Personally, I'm trying to save up to invest in my own Solar panels, I recycle water and when I do buy something in plastic, I reuse the plastic.
Movies with Non-Human protagonists?
Do Wall-E and Finding Nemo count?
Fantastic MrFox was also great.
How to Train your Dragon was pretty good but may not count.
The problem is that most people relate more with Humans. It's not that people don't like movies with non-human protagonists, It's that it's safer these days for movies to star a gun toting while male. It's not that they're not being well received, it's that they're not being made to be poorly received.
edit: No, Team Plasma was still just a typical "animal lover demonization" BS. Even when people didn't know the true goals of Ghetsis, they were treated as a complete waste of oxygen. One character even DID call Team Plasma "A Waste of Oxygen." Plus, the big reveal just seemed like a cop-out for something else.
And all through the game, the "Pokemon Liberation" scheme gets everyone thinking; they wonder if they have, indeed, done wrong to their partners and consider releasing them.
edit: No, Team Plasma was still just a typical "animal lover demonization" BS. Even when people didn't know the true goals of Ghetsis, they were treated as a complete waste of oxygen. One character even DID call Team Plasma "A Waste of Oxygen." Plus, the big reveal just seemed like a cop-out for something else.
You completely ignored every point I made in favor of your own side. When I said "I don't think I'm going to change any minds" about this kind of mindset in the Everyday Venting thread, I couldn't have seen more confirmation of the statement if I had gone out of my way to find it. You're only seeing what you 'want' to see in order to 'confirm' your opinion if that's all you have to say in response to my multiple paragraphs. I said, and I quote:And all through the game, the "Pokemon Liberation" scheme gets everyone thinking; they wonder if they have, indeed, done wrong to their partners and consider releasing them.
And to add to it? A Gym leader says this: "Remember your speech in Accumula town? You were responsible for making me rethink my relationship with Pokemon. For that, I thank you. At that time, I made a promise... I swore to myself that I'd dedicate myself to Pokemon even more strongly! What you guys are doing... aren't you going to strengthen the bond between people and Pokemon even more?" And directly after this, Ghetsis alludes to his plans not being genuine. "The world I--I mean Team Plasma--desire!" A shortened version, but he says this every time you talk to him. Know why that's there? To make you suspect there's a deeper hidden agenda other than trying to 'help Pokemon.'
I'm only trying to tell you the facts behind the games themselves and add depth to your very misleading and uninformative statement before about how it's just a game where 'animal lovers' were made into monsters.
Other games? Team Aqua still wanted to do it for things other than humans. As for Team Magma? I said they were in it for humans the whole time, rarely mentioning the Pokemon of the land. But again, they had that mindset and turned it around. It's especially notable in OR/AS. And I never argued against your point about Lysandre. Too bad I do see a decent number of people saying they're misanthropic and that death to all humans is the only solution (even though another species would rise up to our role since they'd have breathing room to do so and make many of the same mistakes), so it doesn't strike me as remotely inconceivable of the misanthropic types.
For the record, I'm not trying to change your opinion on humanity. I'm just trying to show you that the Pokemon games you're accusing of pushing this "humans are absolute good" mindset (that I have actually never seen anywhere in my entire life aside from some fools irl) are not doing that at all. I mean hell, the villains are never the Pokemon, just the people who purposely manipulate them to do their deeds, regardless of the consequences.
[stuff]
I've seen it a LOT more than most people have.
QuoteI'll admit, it might just be me and I look for it more than most people do, but still, it feels like I see anti-environmental messages and pro-"humans are the absolute good" messages a lot.
A self-confirming statement, the reason you see more "humans are the absolute good" messages much more than most people is the fact that you actively look for them. For example, the movies and games you suggested.
Pokemon: I've never played the specific game you're referring to, but I do know one of the primary antagonists in the pokemon universe is Team Rocket, who in the lore act as pokemon poachers. IE: The main bad guys in most pokemon games are people who are abusing pokemon, not people who love pokemon and nature. I have no idea about the world ends with you.
While "The Grey" does depict wolves as the primary antagonist, the movie makes a point that the reason the wolves are attacking is because the humans are in their territory, not because they are inherently humans. Also a lot of the humans within that movie do acts that would not be considered good and these acts are highlighted, including robbing dead bodies.
I still think you are over-generalizing humans as a whole and separating yourself from the rest of the species, which is bad for reasons I've stated before.
In the older games, yes, the main villains were NOT animal lovers. This mostly started in Black and White, and somewhat continued in X and Y. Lysandre isn't an outright animal lover, but he is a generic misanthrope stereotype. Ruby and Sapphire also have environmentalist-themed villains, but they're more or less rivals who only care about SOME animals rather than all.
Whether I'm exagerating or not, one thing I DO know is that movies and forms of media that DO actually have non-human protagonists are almost NEVER well received anymore. Name something in the last three years that has non-human goodguys in them that is actually good. (And no, elves, dwarves and hobbits don't count as non-humans.)
Not really. Even when people are good hearted, there are still ways we are all contributing to this planet's destruction. I mean, what am I typing this message with right now? A computer that uses lot's of energy, probably from a power plant that emits lots of smog and such. Some people buy lots of plastic products that end up in landfills and such. We all do things that hurt the environment and we don't even know it. That's not to say we are bad for using the computer or buying plastic products, but it does show how hard it is for humans to live on planet Earth without some form of destruction, even when you don't try to be destructive. Yes, animals do have destructive capabilities, but in no way do they compare to ours.
Honestly, I'm sick and tired of people telling me "No, you mean THIS, not that. You are not allowed to hate humans! You MUST accept the things we do! We are misunderstood!" Just please shut up about this, okay? Until we as a species actually overcome our problems and actually shape up to make a better planet for life and everything, I will always dislike HUMANS, not SOME humans. It's not a "Black and White" statement, it's just seeing us as a whole.
edit: No, Team Plasma was still just a typical "animal lover demonization" BS. Even when people didn't know the true goals of Ghetsis, they were treated as a complete waste of oxygen. One character even DID call Team Plasma "A Waste of Oxygen." Plus, the big reveal just seemed like a cop-out for something else.
[stuff]
I've seen it a LOT more than most people have.
That, to be blunt implies:
A ) Deliberately seeking the media to confirm your biases
B ) Extreme coincidence
Also you need to remember, there are more villains than heroes in media, and so all groups look disproportionately villainous: all big corporations are evil (A lot of things set in modern day America, or almost anything in a dystopian future, have this as a major theme), all governments are corrupt from the ground up, most scientists care nothing for morality (those that do are bumbling idiots), The police who are not corrupt are incompetent, most poor people are committing crimes, the rich are all assholes.
I can give evidence for ANY of those claims and can clearly show examples that "Prove" that these facts are displayed in popular media, and paint all groups involved in a bad light.
The point is Villains MUST be more numerous than heroes, as one hero goes through a lot of villains, that's why it looks like these groups are being bashed if you go looking for it.
looking at your specific "Target" Well intentioned extremists make for interesting villains and nature is an easy place to go with that. It effects everyone, and is in part caused by everyone, and it can lead to interesting villain designs. making an interesting environmentally friendly hero on the other hand is very tricky without.... well... making captain planet. ultimately though, note the "Well intentioned" part at the start of this paragraph, most depictions I see of this stereotype constantly hammer home that the villain is God-damn RIGHT!
QuoteI'll admit, it might just be me and I look for it more than most people do, but still, it feels like I see anti-environmental messages and pro-"humans are the absolute good" messages a lot.
A self-confirming statement, the reason you see more "humans are the absolute good" messages much more than most people is the fact that you actively look for them. For example, the movies and games you suggested.
Pokemon: I've never played the specific game you're referring to, but I do know one of the primary antagonists in the pokemon universe is Team Rocket, who in the lore act as pokemon poachers. IE: The main bad guys in most pokemon games are people who are abusing pokemon, not people who love pokemon and nature. I have no idea about the world ends with you.
While "The Grey" does depict wolves as the primary antagonist, the movie makes a point that the reason the wolves are attacking is because the humans are in their territory, not because they are inherently humans. Also a lot of the humans within that movie do acts that would not be considered good and these acts are highlighted, including robbing dead bodies.
I still think you are over-generalizing humans as a whole and separating yourself from the rest of the species, which is bad for reasons I've stated before.
In the older games, yes, the main villains were NOT animal lovers. This mostly started in Black and White, and somewhat continued in X and Y. Lysandre isn't an outright animal lover, but he is a generic misanthrope stereotype. Ruby and Sapphire also have environmentalist-themed villains, but they're more or less rivals who only care about SOME animals rather than all.
Whether I'm exagerating or not, one thing I DO know is that movies and forms of media that DO actually have non-human protagonists are almost NEVER well received anymore. Name something in the last three years that has non-human goodguys in them that is actually good. (And no, elves, dwarves and hobbits don't count as non-humans.)
Not really. Even when people are good hearted, there are still ways we are all contributing to this planet's destruction. I mean, what am I typing this message with right now? A computer that uses lot's of energy, probably from a power plant that emits lots of smog and such. Some people buy lots of plastic products that end up in landfills and such. We all do things that hurt the environment and we don't even know it. That's not to say we are bad for using the computer or buying plastic products, but it does show how hard it is for humans to live on planet Earth without some form of destruction, even when you don't try to be destructive. Yes, animals do have destructive capabilities, but in no way do they compare to ours.
Honestly, I'm sick and tired of people telling me "No, you mean THIS, not that. You are not allowed to hate humans! You MUST accept the things we do! We are misunderstood!" Just please shut up about this, okay? Until we as a species actually overcome our problems and actually shape up to make a better planet for life and everything, I will always dislike HUMANS, not SOME humans. It's not a "Black and White" statement, it's just seeing us as a whole.
edit: No, Team Plasma was still just a typical "animal lover demonization" BS. Even when people didn't know the true goals of Ghetsis, they were treated as a complete waste of oxygen. One character even DID call Team Plasma "A Waste of Oxygen." Plus, the big reveal just seemed like a cop-out for something else.
I think you're totally right, non-human characters protagonists are never well received.
It's not like a movie that depicts aliens as the good guys and humans as the bad guys would ever have the largest financial box office of any movie ever made ever (Avatar),
Nor is it possible that many animated features would have non-human protagonists and be well received (Finding Nemo, Monsters Inc, Little Mermaid, Bambi, Alpha & Omega, etc, etc, etc)
Nor is it possible that non-human live-action movies about animal would be well received at all either (8 below, warhorse)
Ah, but it is movies in the last 3 years that have non human protagonists that aren't well received, it's not like a movie would ever be nominated for an oscar that has a tiger as one of the protagonist (Life of Pi) or a FREAKIN OPERATING SYSTEM as a protagonist (Her).
It's not like animated movies still exist where non-human protagonists are the main characters (Monsters Inc, HTTYD 2)
Yet movies continue to come out like Chappie so forth, that stretches the definition of humans and what we are doing.
So again, I disagree with your statement that movies that do not have human main characters or are all about humans are generally more well received than movies that do not. I really you don't have much basis to say these things about the entertainment industry, I mean, wheres your evidence that proves the media hates movies that represent humans as bad and non-humans as good? You make these statements, like "Pokemon white and black does this", but Sytex already basically disproved that point, so that's very shaky evidence. Meanwhile, I just gave 13 examples that disprove your point and I bet you'll kind of just wash over it xD
So let us stop making over-arching statements, instead of saying "X does Y", try to give as much evidence as possible that shows that X does indeed do Y.
Except I NEVER see animal lovers or activists actually portrayed in a good light anymore. In addition, I see quite a bit of media where the "hero" is a hunter. The fact that the main character in The Hunger Games hunts for a living ruins the entire story for me, I can NOT accept a hunter as a hero. Sue me. And yes, I know why she hunts. She does it to feed her family and yadda-yadda-yadda, but it's not why she hunts that pisses me off, it's that I'm sick and tired of seeing animal lovers portrayed as evil, while animal killers are "heroes."