The Furry Forums
Furry Chat => General => Topic started by: Osfer on April 07, 2008, 11:18:26 AM
-
Recently, there have been rumblings of dissatisfaction among small-press publishers about Amazon.com. This article (http://www.writersweekly.com/the_latest_from_angelahoycom/004597_03272008.html), and this one (http://poddymouth.wordpress.com/2008/04/06/scamazon-2008-part-5/), are the most recent. We at Bad Dog Books have noticed some troubling developments as well.
Amazon.com is apparently slowly and quietly ejecting independent small-press publishers from their catalog, in favor of their own print-on-demand partner BookSurge. The Bad Dog Books products on Amazon.com are listed largely as 'out of stock', and we've had no fulfillment orders from them of late. We're hearing similar stories from others in the business.
While we were deeply excited by the prospect of reaching a larger market by presenting our (frankly superb!) line-up on Amazon.com, the administrative hassle, tight, obtuse policies and extremely low margins have been more of a burden than a boon, and these latest developments are frankly depressing.
It seems that we have ourselves and each other. We're running a sale at FurPlanet (http://furplanet.com/shop/category.asp?catid=118)this month, cutting $5 off all the books (even Kamui's new art book), basically sacrificing a month's profits to promote the value and importance of small-press publishers like ourselves and our brothers at Sofawolf Press (http://www.sofawolf.com), and niche distributors like FurPlanet (http://www.furplanet.com) and Second Ed (http://www.second-ed-mailorder.com/).
So, an open question to all of you.. As publishers, should we continue to try to expand anthropomorphic fiction beyond our fandom and into the mainstream, with the tremendous financial risk of investing in sales channels such as Amazon.com which may, at their whim, be sealed off, or should we focus on the fandom first, and leave expansion for the future?
I'm very interested in your thoughts.
- Alex Vance, editor-in-chief of Bad Dog Books (http://www.baddogbooks.com)
-
Why even bother to push Anthro books on those who don't share that passion. While some may enjoy it, seems like bad business to push products on those who simply don't want them. Its like trying to sell chocolate as cast food.
I agree its a shame they are cutting you out like this, but putting out unwanted products is not gonna help make up for your losses
-
We're hardly talking about pushing. I'm not interested in knitting manuals, but I'm not bothered in the slightest that they're available on Amazon.com :)
There's no reason why someone who's interested in furry stuff shouldn't be able to get it on Amazon.com as well. Why shouldn't you be able to get Tim Sussman or Ben Goodridge's latest book along with Stephen King's?
Moreover, the current set-up was hardly a bad deal for Amazon.com. It was our responsibility to ship the books they requested to them, and Amazon didn't even pay a dime for them. Only when they made a sale were they required to pay us, and even then, they got to keep 55% of the cover price, just for storing the book on their shelves, presenting it in their catalog, and shipping it out with the rest of a customer's order when they pressed 'buy'.
And to get back to the 'pushing': Amazon.com's collaborative filtering technology is second to none, with the possible exception to Google. No-one who wasn't interested would encounter furry products.
-
obviously if they are so willing to screw you, why even bother with them. Apparently no matter of deals is gonna make them change their policies
-
They're still one of the biggest on-line retailers of books and sundry!
Bad Dog Books is a business, and we want to make sales. Not just so we can buy a few beers (none of us will be quitting our day jobs any time soon), but primarily so we can offer our authors more professional payments. Our fees for the short stories we buy for our anthologies have tripled since we started, and it was our intention to double them again later in the year, but the loss of Amazon sales may put a serious dent in that.
That was rather the essence of my original question: considering how much we've sold through Amazon.com, there's obviously a great many folks out there with an interest in furry stuff who *don't* browse the catalogs of Bad Dog Books or Sofawolf Press.
-
Your intentions are irrelevant if they refuse to stock your books for sale now isn't it, so in essense I have answered your question. Does it matter which you pick if they don't sell your stuff? it doesnt
Also I don't quite like the tone in your replies, I'm just offering my opinion.
-
I didn't mean any offense, man. I appreciate your feedback a great deal!
-
I guess, after reading your question again. And realising I actually have no answered it, I'm gonna have to say..
Stick with the fandom. Some profit is better then none. Maybe after a while try something like them again. I'm really a bad person to ask for business advice but I'd think some income is better then what your dealing with, with amazon for little to no profit.
Speaking of books, do you have a non Amazon related site in which to sell them? I might be interested in books
-
I'm inclined to agree. It's hard, though, to get people's attention toward the community businesses. Considering the lines you see in the dealer's den at cons (I literally had to strangle five people to get a copy of the latest Kyell Gold, and two more to make it out the door), there's obviously no shortage of interest in furry publications. Any ideas how we can get more eyeballs on the websites, though?
As for our stuff, we can be found at http://www.baddogbooks.com, head there to check out the books themselves. We don't sell directly, preferring to sell through affiliated vendors, so the books can be found at Second Ed, Amazon (technically)... For this month, I'd advise you to head here: http://furplanet.com/shop/category.asp?catid=118 To promote the community, we're dropping the prices of all our books by $5 for the next month on FurPlanet. Have a look -- and if you see something you like, do let me know. Because of the price drop the profits for the next month will barely buy us a slice of pizza, so we'll have to make do with some ego-boosts from our appreciative audience.
They're surprisingly nourishing!
-
That is hard for me to suggest how to get more eyes across your site. There is a links section of this site, sure its a bit cheesy but you could go around to furry sites and post a link.
Granted the users may not appreciate you joining just to advertise. (If you do take that road I in no way condone or affiliate myself with such actions) :P
But really just by talking to me, you have gained at least one person's interest. Its time consuming but $ free to do it that way. Going around talking to people, and plugging your book after a while. If you do it too quick you might just annoy people and hurt your reputation. I dunno, I'm hardly a expert at sales in fact your have a better idea of what will help you then me
Joining strictly for advertising purposes is against the rules and will get the user banned.
WingedZephyr
-
If you want to ask the opinion of members of the furry fandom, that's fine, but please do not use our forum for advertising.
It definitely sounds like you're in a less-than-ideal situation, but if Amazon isn't selling your stuff, you aren't likely to even get the exposure bonus since people aren't going to look into distributing companies who are "out of stock." Try making some banners for people to display on furry sites, if you haven't already. People who are interested and looking for furry-related books generally will find them on their own if they care enough to bother looking.
-
i wasnt telling him to do it, i said i dont condone it. I for one hate site advertising. But other sites who have a link page might want it.
EDIT ya know what forget I try to help and I get in trouble, its not worth it to me.
-
do not use our forum for advertising.
Zephyr, I kept that in mind in my original posting, and while I'll admit I wouldn't mind if I piqued a few people's interest by the mention of the sale, and I did find it to be relevant to the issue, that's not what this topic is about, and I only expanded on it after Dispso asked.
As much as I'd like to take a more active role in forums such as this one, there's simply not enough time in the day. That said, I do care deeply about the community and what it has to offer, and honestly, there's no better way I can think of to get a feel for general sentiments than by dropping in on places like these and seeing what people think.
Yes, the increasing number of 'out of stock' listings on small-press products is one of the reasons we're seriously considering withdrawing from Amazon.com, exactly because of the reason you state: 'out of stock' is so off-putting, we'd almost rather people didn't know about us than think us a fly-by-night enterprise.
Advertising is something we've only recently started dabbling in. A number of furry websites have made ad slots available using Project Wonderful or Google AdSense. There's only pennies in it of course, but every little bit helps to pay the hosting bills. Should you guys decide to open up a few slots, do let us know. We'd much rather buy ad space from a forum like this, where 'our people' actually congregate, and where our hard-earned pennies go to a worthy cause :)
-
Dispsosaurus, my edit was so Osfer wouldn't be confused about the rules here, not so much a warning to you.
And I understand you'd like input from our community, Osfer, it's just my job as a moderator to make sure you understand the rules and don't cross the line.
-
I appreciate your patience and support, and I didn't mean to sound like I was arguing with your policies or your enforcement thereof. I know how hard and how important it is to keep a place like this running :)
-
I still think advertising your books on popular furry sites (if possible) is your best bet. You could do searches for furry art or furry fiction sites and stuff like that and probably find some that offer the ad space. Have you tried working with any other online book sellers similar to Amazon? While they may not be as popular, it might still help with sales.
-
We're experimenting with that kind of advertising this month, in fact. You may see the ads here and there :)
The performance in terms of clickthroughs is quite modest, we furries are such an internet-savvy bunch that our optical cortex filters out most ads we see on webpages -- but it's a start.
We're put a few feelers out, but the general consensus is that at this point we're not big enough to be a proper affiliate or partner, and at the same time, there aren't any other companies out there that offer the same kind of third-party services that Amazon offered.
Our eyes and ears are open :)
-
they probably dont even know what the book is about, its all about how much a book sells, and if it doest sell good, they take it off the shelves to reduce costs of ordering the book at the publisher, very simple, and it has nothing to do with furries, its just bussiness,
the fact that the book was anthro, was probably just a coincidence (this was only directed at the persons who actually thought it had something to do with the fandom)
-
It's nothing against furries, but it *is* against smaller publishers. The programs Amazon.com runs actually doesn't cost them anything. Instead of buying copies from the publisher, this program requires the publisher to send Amazon the copies they ask for free of charge. Only when Amazon sells a copy, is the publisher paid for it.
That's what made this development so peculiar; this program's an insanely good deal for Amazon.com, so shutting it down makes very little sense, unless they're actively trying to stifle the developing small-press market.
-
I'm not an expert in advertising but I would like to say something.
If I ran your company, I probably wouldn't put it into mainstream quite yet, however, slowly build up to it. Try getting in contact with another selling site that might be able to sell your products, or possibly start your own.
-
I'm not an expert in advertising but I would like to say something.
If I ran your company, I probably wouldn't put it into mainstream quite yet, however, slowly build up to it. Try getting in contact with another selling site that might be able to sell your products, or possibly start your own.
i agree, you could also try to find a random local bookstore, or a library or something