The Furry Forums
Furry Chat => Tech Central => Topic started by: NovaAurora on October 15, 2013, 06:31:03 PM
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So as several of you may already know, I haven't had an actual PC for about 7 years now and have only used Apple computers in that time. But for several reasons, I now wish to build myself a legitimate high-end gaming PC and I desperately need help and advice. I know very little computer terminology to begin with, much less what each individual component does, so I have no way to really compare specs of different parts because I don't know what's good and what's not.
Since I'm not expecting a full on explanation for everything (though any knowledge you can impart would of course be great,) what I'm looking for here is primarily advice on where to start. How do I learn all the things I need to learn, and moreover what is most important for me to know/consider when building it? I can afford to spend a decent amount of money on this, but at what point might I just me throwing hundreds of extra dollars at it for only a slight performance increase? Any opinions on where to buy the different components? What about compatibility, surely not all parts work with each other so how do I know what WILL work ahead of time so I can plan out my purchase? So many things I know nothing about...
Anyway, I'd very much appreciate any responses you can give me, and if you have any questions in return for me about what I'm doing please don't hesitate to ask :)
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http://compreviews.about.com/od/general/a/DesktopPCParts.htm (http://compreviews.about.com/od/general/a/DesktopPCParts.htm)
If you don't want to spend over $1000, go with AMD and ATI video cards. Use www.newegg.com (http://www.newegg.com), www.ebay.com (http://www.ebay.com) (be careful), www.tigerdirect.com (http://www.tigerdirect.com), and www.amazon.com (http://www.amazon.com) (use caution) to get the cheapest prices. I would also suggest against buying anything in real life, because it always more expensive and avoiding Windows 8 entirely.
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[...] and avoiding Windows 8 entirely.
I agree with pretty much everything but this.
After being really loud and criticizing about 8, I actually decided to give it a fair trial and now I use Windows 8 on my Desktop and I upgraded my HTPC to it as well. I've also modded the Win7 installation on my laptop I've gotten from school as well in order to make it look and function more like 8 does.
This is really down to subjective though. What is proven however is that Windows 8 is much faster and lighter, has several UI and usability tweaks and improvements and I believe retails for a lower price as well in comparison to Windows 7.
If you see people complaining about compatibility issues in Windows 8, these are most likely outdated claims. It is true that for every new version of Windows, it is to be expected that some programs have certain compatibility errors. XP, Vista and Windows 7 has all seen this in their early days and Windows 8 is no exception. It has been out on the market for long enough now however that these issues should be resolved already and patches have been released.
I've only had 2 problems on any of my computers that's directly related to Windows 8, both to do with compatibility. Both those programs was updated to address these errors over 8 months ago.
The only gripe I otherwise see people having with Windows 8 is that Microsoft took the launcher menu that everyone know and love and made it full screen. Is it a big deal? To many people that judge from looking at screenshots rather than trying it out themselves - yes. To me? No, the opposite. It's a lot more useful and I can organize my most used programs much better and open them up very quickly indeed.
If you happen to not enjoy it however, fear not, you only have to install a single program in order to make it work like it used to in previous versions. And with all the other improvements (did I mention it boots in less than 30 seconds on a physical hard drive? Windows 7 took a minute or so on my 7200RPM drive (which is supposed to be one of the fastest consumer-level ones).
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Thanks for the advice and the links White Wolf, that was very helpful and I think I'll be able to get a good footing from there. And thanks for explaining all that Timmy, as I haven't used any windows versions since whatever was out circa 2006 it doesn't matter to me if they changed something aesthetically from 7 to 8. I've heard SOOO much hatred towards Windows 8 but if the compatibility issues were the cause of most of that and they're mostly fixed now, I don't see a reason to not get the latest operating system.
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Thanks for the advice and the links White Wolf, that was very helpful and I think I'll be able to get a good footing from there. And thanks for explaining all that Timmy, as I haven't used any windows versions since whatever was out circa 2006 it doesn't matter to me if they changed something aesthetically from 7 to 8. I've heard SOOO much hatred towards Windows 8 but if the compatibility issues were the cause of most of that and they're mostly fixed now, I don't see a reason to not get the latest operating system.
That's why I thought I'd point it out. As a fairly strong Windows 8 user myself I'm willing to bet that at least 90% of the hatred towards it comes directly from people who are hating on it for the sake of hating on it rather than those who have actually tested it in order to make their own opinion about it. As said, I used to be one of those until I actually tested it.
I wouldn't say compatibility issues would be the biggest cause, but rather more of an excuse (as you know, when people are set on not liking something, they will come up with excuses and reasons to keep disliking it).
The biggest reason would rather be one of the design changes. See, the thing people say is that they made it to be used exclusively on touchscreen-devices and that regular handling with mouse and keyboard is completely crippled to which I say - no, they did to some compromise but it's certainly not less usable than any previous version.
I suppose it also has to do with the fact that every time a major change is done to almost anything, people are expected to complain. I mean, just look at Youtube or Facebook; Whenever they change the design of the web page, everyone goes apeshit and complains about it as if it was their life goal to act for bringing back the previous design somehow. A week or two later? Most people have forgotten about it. I find this phenomena quite silly, especially considering that it happens every time the design changes (meaning that first people hate the new design with burning passion, then they all want it back when it's changed again after a year or so).
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People are actually idiots and 90% of the hatred is actually for the over-simplified UI in Windows 8. I've been working on computers for well over 11 years, and I can tell you, it's the best thing Microsoft has released to date. The only actually compatibility issues that are still in play at the moment is with 3D modeling programs and VERY old printers. That's about it. Works awesome and fully optimizes any high-end components. I spent just under $1000 on my newest system, and it works awesome with it.
Just take these simple steps and work from there:
1) Find out what you want for a processor and get proper thermal paste (Recommend High-density synthetic silver: minimum 5 rating or higher. AVOID thermal grease, it's useless shit and doesn't work very well).
2) Find a compatible motherboard that works withe said processor and has compatibility to other specs you want (i.e. RAM and GPU)
3) Get RAM
4) Choose a proper GPU according to what you need it to do, and compatibility with your processor.
5) Choose a proper gaming tower shell (needs plenty of ventilation. recommend Antec 900 series to save money and pay less for fans)
6) Get the extra fans
7) Get yourself at least a 1TB HDD. (For best results, use it as a secondary drive and run primary off a basic Solid State Drive)
8) Get yourself 2 DVD drive(s) and/or Blu-Ray drive(s).
9) Purchase a power supply that's at LEAST 650W (Best to start at an 850W)
10) Get a grounding wrist band or a nice hunk of metal to maintain contact with to avoid discharge (I usually pinch the tower with my foot)
11) Avoid wearing too much (None, if possible) cotton or polyester clothing.
12) Avoid carpeted flooring and large furnishings with similar material.
13) Follow manual to construct (not too hard since everything has been color-coded for the last 5 1/2 years).
14) When turning on computer, quickly go to boot menu and run off of Windows (recommend Win8) installation boot-disc.
15) Get ready to wait for at least 2 hours of hardware installation/updates (Based on Medium cable internet speed @100mbps connection, 25mpbs D/L and 2.0mbps U/L)
ENJOY!!!
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I plan to follow this when I somehow gain enough little green pieces of paper. The guide tells you what parts to get and even how to install them.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bh455l3348s (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bh455l3348s#ws)
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The biggest thing about Windows 8 is the basic facts that:
1) It consumes less HDD space
2) Can optimize all components, even 3D-ready graphics cards, up to 110% performance
3) 60% less background processes (which means faster operation, less CPU/RAM consumption, more multi-tasking)
I plan to follow this when I somehow gain enough little green pieces of paper. The guide tells you what parts to get and even how to install them.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bh455l3348s (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bh455l3348s#ws)
(I would avoid Steam OS if I were you. Valve's attempt at just the Steam platform took over 3 years to work properly. A Steam computer is just asking for a foot up the ass)
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Actually, the video is about building a pc based around the steam box's size. He actually recommends getting Windows 7.
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Actually, the video is about building a pc based around the steam box's size. He actually recommends getting Windows 7.
i only keep windows 7 for my art PCs. my gaming comps have all switched to Windows 8 already. Works so much faster and better than 7. No more useless crap running in the background to slow down my games or induce any lag. Totally has nothing to do with running 32GB DDR3 and 2GB DDR5 VRAM on dual 480GTXs.
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A matter of preference and cautiousness really, just make sure all of the components you purchase have Windows 8 drivers.
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Shinzuu made several excellent point there, but I do think I should point out a few things that can be worth noting:
1. Aftermarket thermal paste is indeed the best way to go, do make sure to clean off the pre-applied such beforehand, preferably using 99% isopropyl (rubbing) alcohol or as close to such as you can get (similar solvents should work as well, just make sure it doesn't contain weird additions).
As for the paste itself, my only rule of thumb is to avoid Arctic Silver 5 (usually referred to as "AS5"). It's a good but old paste, however it does contain silver and is electrically conductive (if you're careful it's fine, but if you spill over somewhere or put on too much, you can risk damaging your components). Personally I'm a big fan of the Arctic Cooling MX4 paste. It's one of the top ones and also boasts an 8-year durability rating (time before it dries out and needs to be reapplied, compared to the aforementioned AS5 that only lasts about a year at most) plus it doesn't require any "burn in" time to reach its highest performance.
Simply put; Avoid Arctic Silver 5 and get one with good reviews, I'll personally vouch for Arctic Cooling's MX2 or MX4.
2. Unless you're planning on using more than a single graphics card (I doubt it), you don't really need to pay as much attention to compatibility with graphics cards. There's 2 brands that make them (AMD and Nvidia) and all modern motherboards should support either of them (even if they only specify compatibility for one of them).
3. The case doesn't need to be gaming oriented. Usually I say go for the one that looks good to you, but also don't go with those that are really cheap. I know from personal experience that finding good cases can be a pain in the behind because there are so many different options. Corsair and Fractal Design are two manufacturers I'd vouch for. I'm personally using the Arc Midi R2 by Fractal Design which has a very good price and is an awesome case overall. They also gave me a FREE replacement front panel not too long ago when I simply asked their customer support how much it'd cost (after having scratched it and gotten some stains on it, all caused by myself).
4. Depending on which case you buy, fans aren't always necessary. Fractal Design I know bundles 2 of their own fans with the Define-series and 3 with the Arc series. These are whisper quiet and do the job very well. Filling up the whole thing with fans will also just make it loud with little benefit. 1-2 in the front and 1-2 in the top/rear will do the job.
5. Solid state drive (SSD) is recommended and much faster, but not the most important thing in the world. So you may wish to opt for just getting the hard drive in order to save some money.
6. 2 DVD or Bluray drives? Why? Many tech people are moving away from it and saying getting just 1 is optional. Personally I'd say get a single DVD drive and get the cheapest you can find (unless you like the look of a particular model of course).
DVD drives it doesn't really differ much between cheap and less cheap models, so usually any will do. I don't see why you'd have 2 though.
Only consider a bluray drive if you actually watch bluray movies on your computer or wish to do so at some point, if not it's just extra money for something you won't use.
7. Depending on the components, you won't need a huge power supply. I think 850w is a bit of an overstatement. 650W should serve you well unless you are planning to fill the computer with really high end stuff.
8. Grounding wrist bands are excellent, I have one myself that I haven't used in years!
They are cheap and do what they are supposed to. Although I don't feel they do too much. Just touch anything metal (such as your case) you should be perfectly fine.
Do work on a good solid surface such as a table however and indeed avoid surfaces and clothing that can cause static electricity.
9. There's several excellent tutorials on youtube for assembling your computer. It may be well worth investing some time in watching some of them in order to familiarize yourself with the process.
A matter of preference and cautiousness really, just make sure all of the components you purchase have Windows 8 drivers.
This should likely be a non-issue. I've had several devices that previously you needed to install drivers for in order for them to work that in Windows 8 works by just plugging it in.
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just quick on the power supply, difference in price between a 650 and 850 is $5.
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just quick on the power supply, difference in price between a 650 and 850 is $5.
Where? What brand and model?
If you find good prices of course why not go with the better one. But my point is you usually don't need a super high amounts of watts.
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always good to be prepared. And I buy Antecs for power supplies. best to have a good medium-high power supply just in case you decide to upgrade more later. granted, my newest tower runs a kilowatt. best way to find parts for cheap is to shop Fry's Electronics. They always have crazy sales, but usually on the store level. best to have family and/or friends that live near one and have them buy and ship, which usually ends up still cheaper than newegg or anywhere else. my last project was an Antec 902 tower, Kilowatt, Blu-ray drive, blu-ray burner, 2 TB 7200/SSD hybrid, 64 GB SSD, Alienware liquid cooling, Intel i7 970x Extreme 6-core, 32GB DDR3 and 2 Nvidea GTX480's. Total cost came to around $970 after tax and shipping.
Antec towers are usually between $90-120 and don't need as many additional fans since the 900 series towers come with the "Big Daddy" fans that have larger diameters than the tower is wide, but you might find them on good sales from $50-70. Got my 902 for only $65.
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Ok, thanks to all this information I think I'm getting somewhere :P I've got a pretty good grasp on what kind of CPU and motherboard I'd need, but I'm kinda stuck on the GPU. I definitely need a relatively powerful one because I plan to do high-specs gaming with it, but I'm confused by all the different specs on them. I want to run at high resolutions and framerates, but I probably won't ever use more than 2 monitors, if I even go up from one. I'd prefer if I could keep the cost of the graphics card under/at $500. Does anyone have a recommendation for a graphics card (most likely Nvidia) at that price point that can offer great performance but doesn't bump the price up with features I'll probably not need?
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GTX 480 works plenty fine. and has good compatibility with Win 8. Price has dropped down to about $200-250.
if you want to ride the high end of your price and get a little extra kick, you can get a GTX 580 WITH a liquid cooler for around $450-500.
Both cards have good compatibility with WIN8 so there's my 2 cents.
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You can actually get a GTX 760 (which is higher end than a 580 and the 3 year old 480 (And generally one of the highest end graphics card around)) for around $250 on Amazon (here) (http://www.amazon.com/EVGA-SuperClocked-Dual-Link-Graphics-02G-P4-2765-KR/dp/B00DHW4HXY/ref=lp_284822_1_1?s=pc&ie=UTF8&qid=1382425373&sr=1-1). You would need a relatively high end processor and power supply though, so make sure you have those before thinking of the graphics card. It's important to know that this graphics card is a much newer and powerful card than the 580 or 480, so if you like gaming I'd suggest going to there.
Generally, buy your components from small companies rather than large companies, you can shave over $200 per part if you don't purchase them from places like Intel or whatever.
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Ok, thanks to all this information I think I'm getting somewhere :P I've got a pretty good grasp on what kind of CPU and motherboard I'd need, but I'm kinda stuck on the GPU. I definitely need a relatively powerful one because I plan to do high-specs gaming with it, but I'm confused by all the different specs on them. I want to run at high resolutions and framerates, but I probably won't ever use more than 2 monitors, if I even go up from one. I'd prefer if I could keep the cost of the graphics card under/at $500. Does anyone have a recommendation for a graphics card (most likely Nvidia) at that price point that can offer great performance but doesn't bump the price up with features I'll probably not need?
Graphics cards is worth waiting a month or 2 for really with all the recent releases.
At this current point, AMD is the go-to in terms of getting the most value. Their R9-280X or 7970 are both priced around $300 and performs more or less on-par with the Nvidia GTX 770 ($400). Nvidia has some technologies and niches going for them and AMD has some as well for that matter, but in terms of raw performance, the AMD card is essentially on par for about $100 less.
That said, Nvidia cards on the higher end (most notably the 780, currently priced at $649) is expected to drop dramatically in price as an answer to this, so do look out for that as it may just drop down to the $500 range. AMD is also set to launch their 290 and 290X models which might be priced around there as well.
Currently I'd personally go for the 280X or 7970 (look out for the GHz edition model of this card) due to the excellent prices. I also never really buy a current top-tier card because the value you get for the price is much less than other models. Take the 7970 for example which is the previous top-tier card; It started at $500-600ish at release and now retails at about half that price. Thus a model or two below the very top-end card usually offers excellent performance but at a much more affordable price. And in this respect, the 280X is "that" model right below the new top model (and the 7970 being nearly identical at a similar price point). That's seemingly about to change as said, but at this very point in time that's what I'd recommend.
*snip*(And generally one of the highest end graphics card around))
I'd disagree with this statement. It's one of these "good value" cards rather than a high-end card. It's more mid-high tier than high-end. The 770, 7950, 7970 and R9-280X are all less than $500 and performs higher than the 760.
The 760 is a good card, but I'd personally rather wait for the 760TI which, if Nvidia keeps their tradition, should be released within the next few months.
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Only reason I will never go back to AMD, is because of how horrible the drivers were for the 5870. Constantly getting corrupted and would just stop working, requiring re-install after re-install.
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Only reason I will never go back to AMD, is because of how horrible the drivers were for the 5870. Constantly getting corrupted and would just stop working, requiring re-install after re-install.
Heard similar issues about Nvidia to be honest.
I know a certain forum member here that actually got his older model replaced due to constant issues with THE Nvidia drivers. I used to have the 5770 which is one tier below the 5870 and never had any issues with drivers.
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I'd actually been looking specifically at the 760 and 770 as potential choices, wasn't quite sure myself why I'd wanna pay similar money for the 580. Also I was looking at the specs for games I plan on playing primarily with it, and at least one says for optimal performance on an Nvidia card it should be 600 series or higher (not sure if this is just a marketing technique or something but it came from the devs so...) I've also heard several horror stories about AMD drivers and compatibility issues with them and games before, which is not to say Nvidia doesn't have its own problems, but I've just heard more problems stemming from AMD cards personally.
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I'd actually been looking specifically at the 760 and 770 as potential choices, wasn't quite sure myself why I'd wanna pay similar money for the 580. Also I was looking at the specs for games I plan on playing primarily with it, and at least one says for optimal performance on an Nvidia card it should be 600 series or higher (not sure if this is just a marketing technique or something but it came from the devs so...) I've also heard several horror stories about AMD drivers and compatibility issues with them and games before, which is not to say Nvidia doesn't have its own problems, but I've just heard more problems stemming from AMD cards personally.
Had AMD for 4 or 5 years myself, only ever had a single problem with their drivers and it requires 4 monitors to reproduce. Most/all driver issues with AMD I see is from people using extreme configurations, usually several cards installed.
I also think the driver version naming is also very straight forward compared to my experience with Nvidias system. AMD simply names them after year and month it was release - The current one is 13.9 for September 2013 for example.
If a game says it runs better with one or the other it's mostly marketing. The difference in performance is fairly minimal in almost every single game. Usually the developers are paid/sponsored by either Nvidia or AMD to promote them by optimizing the game for their cards. I've even seen games made to run best with Nvidia cards where AMD cards run notably better and vice versa.
As said once more, AMD's HD7970 and R9-280X is currently priced at about $100 less than the 770 but is more or less on par in terms of raw performance.
Nvidia has a lot of features going for them though, they have CUDA (which only matters really if you edit videos and such using Adobe software), Physx (adds some fancy but mostly useless effects in supported games), G-sync (makes things look better and more natural, but requires you to buy a supported monitor) and a few more things.
AMD has things like Mantle (gives increased performance in supported games, so far only BF4 is on the list), OpenGL support (an open-source alternative to CUDA) and generally better potential for overclocking.
Both of them offers free game bundles;
Nvidia gives you Assassin's Creed IV and Splinter Cell: Blacklist with the 760 and adds Batman: Arkham Origins to the list with the 770.
AMD, with the 7970, lets you choose any 3 games from this list: Saints Row IV, Tomb Raider, Sleeping dogs, Deux Ex: Human Revolution, Devil May Cry, Far Cry 3, Far Cry 3: Blood Dragon, Dirt 3, Dirt Showdown and Sniper Elite. (Although the R9-280X is currently excluded from this offer)
I'd say honestly that it comes down to if you want the more premium features Nvidia offers for a higher price or a better value and equal performance at a lower price which is what AMD stands for.
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Ok, thanks for all the info. I do plan on using adobe software for that, so perhaps it would be worth it for the Nvidia then. But in any case I'm glad to hear there are a lot of options.