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Furry Chat => Tech Central => Topic started by: anoni on July 19, 2012, 05:23:16 AM

Title: The Consequences of Computerization
Post by: anoni on July 19, 2012, 05:23:16 AM: So this board is not very active and I know we talked about this a bit in the Genetic Engineering thread so I thought I would make a thread about the computerization that is happening in the world; the advantages, disadvantages and everything in between.

Computers are things we all know, because well if you didn't know what a computer or the internet was you wouldn't be on this website. The use of computers and the internet has made the seemingly impossible, possible. With the power of Google we have all the humanities perspectives, opinions, history, thoughts, sciences, religious beliefs, political opinions and knowledge in general at our finger tips in utmost detail. We are able to enter a realm where distance has become insignificant, where a quarter of a second to load 200,000 letters is considered to slow. A world where we can create our own universes, where we can share information ideally with each other and everyone. A world where our physical selves are getting less and less prevalent, where we are starting to unleash the potential of technology. Some people may believe that we have reached the point, but we are oh so far away from what we can achieve.

Emerging technologies under theoretical ideas may seem like science fiction, but these are all too real. With the coming advances of quantum computing, a computer chip the size of a mere 250 atoms would have the potential to process more information a second then a classical computer the size of the entire observable universe. With intense study and current applications of Brain-User interfaces, we are able to control a mouse cursor with our mind, create artificial eyes and are able to control artificial limbs that aren't connected to our body, as these are technologies we have today, there is no telling what we can achieve with the future. There's also the coming technology that is so exquisitely featured in the Anime Ghost in a Shell, of the coming technological advances that could allow us to connect to the internet and other people's minds through our own. These all seem impressive and they are all (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brain%E2%80%93computer_interface) too (http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,2048299,00.html) real (http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2012/may/06/quantum-computing-physics-jeff-forshaw).

So the question and discussion of this thread is about the consequences of these emerging technologies, the consequences of what life becomes in the ever growing sea of information. The questions that can be asked is when to stop? How do we separate life from an Artificial Intelligence or can we even? What if the classifications becomes so fuzzy that we can no longer explain what life is?

I want to know, what do you think will be the Consequences of Computerization, do you think the ideal computer age would be good or bad and why?

For example, an issue I could come up with is whether we should get rid of the notion of internal life altogether. For if the technology becomes available, could we detach from our physical bodies and become one with the internet? Converting our thoughts into light signals and be able to migrate from a brain to a computer. Then able to move from computer to computer, through the internet, for all eternity, immortal and capable of almost limitless potential. The problems with this concept is the idea of the individual, which is lost. The concept is, if you can move to the internet from your own body your old brain would be destroyed or kept alive. If your old brain was kept alive and you still were you, you'd essentially only be copying a clone to the internet, it would not really be you on the web, but instead an exact replica of your thoughts. So, if you wanted to really be considered that yourself onto the internet, your old self would be destroyed. Although the same principle applies, although you are destroyed and the clone lives on in the system, the classifications of such an action would dictate that there was no clone and that you simply moved from your brain to the internet. Explained that, you would not know that you died (because your dead), the clone would not know he was reborn and simple believe he was moved and society wouldn't know that you were cloned either, but instead that you simply moved. So for classification to dictate that you moved from a computer to the internet the old brain would have to be destroyed, if you didn't destroy the old brain it would still have the same effect except that everyone would be aware that you aren't actually on the internet and it was only your clone that was on the internet. But yeah that's just an example of what could be discussed here.
Title: Re: The Consequences of Computerization
Post by: Snowbristle on July 21, 2012, 05:23:08 AM: A computer is an empty vessel it does not have a soul for a lack of a better word. I see the next stage of computing evolution as having better interfaces as you can only type so fast from a computer interface. A sort of brain-computer interface. This would bring some amazing advances to the speed at which a person could acquire new knowledge.
Title: Re: The Consequences of Computerization
Post by: anoni on July 21, 2012, 05:33:22 AM: So the point that you make is that computers don't have a "soul". So one must ask to define a soul. If you believe in a soul as a spiritual metaphysical aspect of the body, then I can't really argue with that, because this shouldn't turn to a religious debate. However, I'm here to say that an AI and that of a human could be the same thing. If there was an AI that could feel, it could feel pain, sorrow, sadness, happiness, love, compassion and true warmth for mankind, would you consider that AI something of a human? Something to be protected? Something to not be abused and exploited? Would you consider that AI Life? If you would, then what makes that AI's "soul" different from a normal computers "soul", they are the same thing except one is just more complex.

Interesting thing about typing. The QWERTY keyboard (the keyboard we use) was first designed for type writers. The idea of the key layout was so that keys you press often that together like "hi" and "ious" are further apart from the keyboard. This was because in type writers, if you pressed too many keys that are were too close together, you could cause the typewriter to jam. That said, the QWERTY keyboard is then actually designed to be inefficient, so people typed slower and didn't jam the type writers. Now that we have computers, this boundary is no longer needed and we could use a much more efficient type of keyboard (some have actually been made), but we still use QWERTY. Why is that? Well, it's because everyone was so used to using QWERTY that changing a keyboard design would just not be appreciated. Imagine someone gave you a keyboard where all the buttons were in different places; even if it was more efficient you'd still probably stick with your QWERTY keyboard.
Title: Re: The Consequences of Computerization
Post by: Nrein on July 21, 2012, 05:41:02 AM: Personally I think the next *major* step would be DNA Computing. Not to go major Sci-Fi geeky or anything, but sorta like how in Star Trek they have those Bio-neural Gel Packs, for better transfer/interaction/usage of data.
If they can make it so that happens, then you wouldn't have new CPU's coming out every year, because you can't get much better than DNA as it is >>
And of course, the only thing you'd have to worry about is if somehow the computer did manage to have a conscious/sentience of its own, but that could be very easily regulated by making sure that the only thing the DNA portion of the computer regulated, is the data usage. Everything else would still be how it is, unless they also figure out how to use it for Data storage. But even then, it would be so "basic" that it wouldn't know how to execute commands itself, since the DNA would only be used for the transference of data, not actually using it. o.o

Also, to go with Anoni's recent post, when it comes to defining a "soul", this issue has been brought up in many areas. If you ask me, I agree with what you say there. *Though*, I would say that an AI created to simulate *specific* feelings, that can't adapt, doesn't have a soul.
Title: Re: The Consequences of Computerization
Post by: anoni on July 21, 2012, 05:56:40 AM: Well, an AI that could display feelings in a realistic way would need to adapt, probably using learning algorithms, which although may seem like just a simulation of those feelings, in truth it's not because it's our brain works the same way.

I did a post about DNA computing on this thread, well about all types of computing in general.
http://www.thefurryforum.com/forums/index.php?topic=20053.0 (http://www.thefurryforum.com/forums/index.php?topic=20053.0)

So actually I think the first major leap in terms of improvements with computers will be optical computing. That is, computing with light instead of electricity. Which, seeing as photo-transistors have already been made, could be a very near possibility, it would mean that computers run a lot faster because the actual code in the computer can go from one place to another quicker. DNA computing has a lot of advantages though and has actually been used (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pancake_sorting) recently. It's main advantage is you can have a lot of different parks that work in parallel causing a much more sophisticated and running computer. Still, I don't think DNA computers could accidentally get consciousness unless they were given a specific learning algorithm that allowed it unintentionally. But any computer with such an algorithm could also gain consciousness. Here's a question.

Should a computer that accidentally gets consciousness be destroyed, taken for scientific and technical analysis or kept alive?
Kara - Heavy Rain's Dev Trailer (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G0KTUysrwgQ#ws)
Ghost in the Shell (1995) My favourite scene (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YZX58fDhebc#)
Title: Re: The Consequences of Computerization
Post by: Nrein on July 21, 2012, 06:51:15 AM: Well, it's a two way street, really x.x

In a "near-perfect" world, or one that I would like us to have, that sort of "accident" would be the result of a new life form being created. Thus, it'd be kept a live, and observed only in a humane fashion. But I'm sure that given how things are now, it'd be dismantled, because they'd want to "find out how this could happen." Or it would be viewed as a malfunction rather than a blessing ;-;
Title: Re: The Consequences of Computerization
Post by: Aloneness on July 22, 2012, 05:34:27 PM: Probably the next major advancement will be Crystal Tech, by that I mean the mass use of Binary Crystal, which can store 100x's of times more information then whats available now and considering its experimental tech at the moment its very plausible for it to become the generation after the next generation of computes. After that, depending on how powerful it is compaired to Organic Tech we may or may not go into Organic Technology as in Bio-computers (think of a Wraith Hive ship from Stargate-Atlantes if you don't know what I mean from Organic computing)

How ever when we've reached the bridge where "Crystal Tech" is truly obsolete ... maybe 100years from achieving it (going off of a J-Curve) We'll well either make true bio computers, or move on to the next big thing

As for AI's ... well untill one becomes centenarian and then goes rouge if you will its not a true "AI's" because it will still be running off of protocols etc. But then predicting it would be as hopeless as predicting any other living creature. How ever the Psudo-AI's which arn't really AI's but extremely complex programs that run off of multiple extremely complex algorithms to "simulate" an artificial intelligence well there advancing our way up the line and should have some pretty "smart" ones coming in the next 20 or so years.

My Hope Is.... "The Elder Scrolls 10: Nirn" Meaning Take Skyrim On max graphical settings, on the PC then times that by 10-20, then take every previous elder scroll game and add them all together. Hints the name of the game, Nirn is the name of the planet where all the games take place. Now ... Fan-boy/girl Squeal to your hearts content... only ... 15 or so more years

Release Date ... somewhere around 2027 as they make the games in 3 year increments about
Title: Re: The Consequences of Computerization
Post by: anoni on July 23, 2012, 05:35:34 PM: Well, I think
1. Crystal tech sounds more like storage advancements rather than speed advancements. Why biological computers is more concerned on speed.
2. It could be said that a human is an "extremely complex programs that run off of multiple extremely complex algorithms to "simulate" an artificial intelligence". What is real artificial intelligence? In the whole scheme of things the brain works like a computer, it simulates logical patterns very similar to that of a 1 and 0.
3. I think your estimates on technology are a bit too long. Quantum computing is expected to be conventional in the next 60 years.
Title: Re: The Consequences of Computerization
Post by: Aloneness on July 25, 2012, 07:12:21 PM: Quote from: anoni on July 23, 2012, 05:35:34 PM
Well, I think
1. Crystal tech sounds more like storage advancements rather than speed advancements. Why biological computers is more concerned on speed.
2. It could be said that a human is an "extremely complex programs that run off of multiple extremely complex algorithms to "simulate" an artificial intelligence". What is real artificial intelligence? In the whole scheme of things the brain works like a computer, it simulates logical patterns very similar to that of a 1 and 0.
3. I think your estimates on technology are a bit too long. Quantum computing is expected to be conventional in the next 60 years.

1. Yes and no, it would probably start out as storage, so yes it will probably be major storage advancement, but since everything would be read by lasers, it would indeed carry a good speed bonus along with it, think of fiber optics and again since everything is just 1's and 0's I don't see why you couldn't have a Binary Crystal GPU.

2. Eh yes buy organic computers I just see so many problems wrong with it ^^; I mean we have computers already that can process more info then the human brain. Either because the brains low utilization of its potential or for other reasons I just see it as highly inefficient.

3. I think your estimates on technology are a bit to short, tho like anything technology is progressing at a exponential rate almost (J-Curve theory) They also said we'd have flying cars and a lunar base by now? etc. etc. etc. You get my point, its better to over estimate and be like wow that took shorter then expected then to underestimate and be paranoid till it does come.
Title: Re: The Consequences of Computerization
Post by: ZombiezuRFER on July 25, 2012, 07:23:12 PM: We have the flying cars, its just that you go to an airport to use them.
Title: Re: The Consequences of Computerization
Post by: Aloneness on July 25, 2012, 07:28:07 PM: ^ Not what I mean ... -.-
Title: Re: The Consequences of Computerization
Post by: anoni on July 26, 2012, 02:03:45 PM: 1. Yes, that's optical computing; they've already made photo-transistors so it should be the next to come to the market.

2. Computers can't process more than the brain does, more than the conscious brain maybe, but the brain has an immense computational capability beyond that. An example is the stopped clock effect, something that is remarkable about the sub-conscious brain. Have you noticed when you look at a clock for the first time, the first tick seems to take longer than all the other ticks (not the sound but the movement)? This is because when you move your eyes really fast from location A to location B, the brain can't comprehend the ensuring blur between the transition. So instead, to simulate fluent eye movement, once you have finished the movement from location A to location B, your brain deletes the blur you had from memory and replaces that memory with a picture of location B. This effect happens ANY time you move your eyes and is scientifically proven, on average you lose 40 minutes per day because of this effect. That is just one example of something that the brain does that you're unaware of and because of these millions of events the brain requires an amazing amount of computational ability. Something that we are getting close to, but we have not yet gotten a computer that would be able to completely surpass the brain in computational ability. (It's predicted we might have one next year though, it is also predicted in 2046 we'll have a computer that can outdo the computational abilities of the human race).

3. The difference between flying cars and computing is that the automobile industry, throughout the years, has not improved nearly as much as the computing industry. According to Moore's Law the amount of transistors on integrated circuits has the increased by 100% every 2 years, the energy a computer requires is also decreasing at an exponential rate, up until the von Neumann-Landauer limit (Which can be bypassed by reversible computers, such as probabilistic computers, a Quantum computer is a form of probabilistic computer) and biological computers have already been used in such algorithm problems that can't be approached by classical computers, such as the advanced pancake stacking problem. The Automobile industry is not increasing nearly as much, simple because the demand for it isn't that high, people appreciate that cars are fast enough, good enough and the improvement in cars is slow. But the demand for information is so significantly higher than almost any other field that new and improved microprocessors are being created every month, I wouldn't doubt that as soon a computer is built there is already a better, more improved computer in production. A state of the art computer made 3 years ago would not be able to play recent games on all medium. A car made 3 years ago is still considered new. Lunar travel suffered the same fate, no one saw the need, a lunar base was not in demand unlike the power of personal computers and the internet. I don't think comparing the computer industry to the automobile industry isn't valid.
Title: Re: The Consequences of Computerization
Post by: Aloneness on July 31, 2012, 01:49:44 AM: 2. If we had our brains where running at 90% Utilization instead of tiny 10% we'd die >.> our brains would be catch on fire and explode... implying that in a comical since of course. Yes there is a almost unmeasurable amount of processing power that our brains have, but unless your able buy a new brain every week from super overclocking it to its full potential. Its not efficient by any means nature is lazy, in almost any and every case. Electricity follows the path of least resistance, etc., etc.

As for computers surpassing the brain I wasn't talking about your standard little home computer, I was talking about real computers that have 100's of Multi-Core CPU's in them. and a TB's of RAM Computers like the California Nuclear Simulator Super Computer. Which can perform at a steady rate of 16.32 PETAFLOPS meaning it can make 10¹⁵ floating-point operations per second

The brain can do about 20000000000000000 calculations per second ... with a latency of 300-700 milliseconds

20000000000000000 Brain
16320000000000000 Computer

Also computer have a much smaller latency time.

~~================================================================================================~~
3. The flying car thing was more of a joke saying that they've said we'd have all the stuff in "The Jetsons" pretty much by now. We've always over estimated as a race on our technological advances. But we also have to assume we don't have a Nuclear Holocaust between now and then ;p lol.
Title: Re: The Consequences of Computerization
Post by: anoni on July 31, 2012, 11:47:27 AM: 2. Well, sure our brains can't compute the capabilities of all 100% now, but this is potential capabilities, the CNSSC can potentially perform those calculations but has probably never been pushed to a limit that severe. Either way, if we were to enhance the brain using cybernetics, not to a point of increased productivity but to a point where it can reach it's potential, then we have unleashed the full potential of the brain. Though you're right about the latency, the neurotransmitters in the human body are surprisingly slow, only moving 30-40 feet per second.

3. Well yeah, of course, we're assuming the world doesn't end. But we have to work on a balance of probabilities.

Here's a question.
What if we connected everyone through a neural network, so that all people could think and share ideas with each other almost instantly, do you think that would be beneficial or would it cause too many problems?
Title: Re: The Consequences of Computerization
Post by: Nrein on July 31, 2012, 11:59:44 AM: Way too many issues.
Just imagine when someone figures out how to hack whatever mechanism is used to do that, and manages to mess with peoples minds? Or how it can be used as an advantage in a lot of areas. Not to mention, if there was some sort of failure during a connection, whose to say what could happen?
That and, We are not the Borg.
Personally, I think that a simple way to do it would be an easy, instantaneous way to put "mind into matter" so to speak. Be able to visually represent thoughts on a dime, on screens, projections, etc.
Title: Re: The Consequences of Computerization
Post by: anoni on July 31, 2012, 12:05:37 PM: Projections would be nice, but you wouldn't be able to communicate with someone on the other side of the world with such a matter. The idea of "what if there could be hackers" could be the same as the internet. Why use the internet because it's possible that there could be hackers that hack onto your computer and access your personal information? Why go bungee jumping when it's possible you could fall to your death? Why drive when you can get into a car accident and die? Everything has risks, but does the risk of a mind hack really outway the potential benefits of unlimited perceptions being able to communicate at the same time?
Title: Re: The Consequences of Computerization
Post by: Nrein on July 31, 2012, 12:21:08 PM: Honestly, yes x.x;
I'm sorry, someone prying into my head for personal, legal information, like my SS or bank account info, that's just over the top "no" zone for me.
That kind of stuff I hardly have online right now, and that's only for my college stuff.
Title: Re: The Consequences of Computerization
Post by: Aloneness on August 01, 2012, 06:08:51 AM: My opinion is I don't wanna be brain linked to 8Billion + people ...

I'm shy, anti-social, etc. in Real life I don't need them in my head.

@Nic: So you care more about Identity info being stolen, from a hack instead of being turned into mindless zombie or sleeper agent to do the hacker bidding... ? XD
Title: Re: The Consequences of Computerization
Post by: Nrein on August 01, 2012, 12:03:54 PM: Point being that I dont have to think that deep about it, to not want it =V
Title: Re: The Consequences of Computerization
Post by: anoni on August 01, 2012, 12:15:46 PM: Guys you're missing the fact that we would be able to know so much about each other!

There would be no such thing as miscommunication, if you had an idea you wouldn't have to explain it words you could just think it, if you were trying to explain something to someone you could just think it to them. You could contact anyone on any side of the planet at will. You could learn so fast by just having being able to directly connect to information. You could be almost omniscient with the potential of all the human knowledge ever made in existence inside your head.

Obviously this wouldn't all be inside your head at the same time, it would be similar to the internet. You would only connect to one person at a time, each connection would need to be authorized by both the sender and receiver just like a computer connecting to a website. Identity theft is ALREADY an issue, every time you post your credit card number online, or even not online and use it for a store, there is a chance someone could steal it. So if you're that scared of identity theft, don't go online or store any personal information on an electronic device.

The internet has done so much for humanity, what if we could have an even better internet that's works directly from our minds. Anytime, anyplace, more information than ever before.
Title: Re: The Consequences of Computerization
Post by: Nrein on August 01, 2012, 12:24:27 PM: Identity Theft was just the first, quickest example that came to mind, its not the only reason I wouldnt want someone tapping into my mind >.>

As far as people knowing a lot about me, I think I do well enough just by telling people, that I trust and am close to, about myself. And there are, in fact, plenty of things I dont want others, or certain people, to know about myself x.x

Point being, Im not saying its a bad idea, just one that I personally dont embrace. Sorry, its just my personal opinion =I
Title: Re: The Consequences of Computerization
Post by: Aloneness on August 01, 2012, 08:06:31 PM: I'm going to stay out of this round of OMG Computerization Topics Sorry v.v

But this would be a good Idea for the future :D

(http://fc05.deviantart.net/fs26/f/2008/127/8/d/Portal__Aperture_Science_Stein_by_BlightedKujo.jpg)

Now I think I will enjoy some of my Quantum Space Hole Beer, with some Cake :D

Warning Contains a Spoiler

(http://fc07.deviantart.net/fs23/f/2007/317/9/3/Aperture_Science_Cake_Mix_by_nizmoe.jpg)