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Furry Chat => General => Topic started by: kivabunny on November 23, 2011, 06:17:45 PM

Title: possibilities and implications of having fur
Post by: kivabunny on November 23, 2011, 06:17:45 PM

ok this was started in the "what if furry was mainstream/widely accepted" thread , we were all discusing how it would be possible to have fur grafted on or have your body geneticly re-engineered to have fur,and the consequences/benefits,we were asked to stay on topic, so i created this to hear comments and your thoughts.

Title: Re: possibilities and implications of having fur
Post by: Otebon Albrecht on November 26, 2011, 02:25:17 AM

Those of us that own animals know that it takes a lot to keep fur clean, and a lot more if the fur is long or thick. For example, a long haired collie is a monster to clean while the short hair of a horse's flank is really easy (done both before). The collie requires effort to get to the root and make sure that all the dirt and grime gets out while the horse you can almost spray with a hose and wipe down afterwards.


That being said, I think having fur would be worth it. Sure it would be troublesome for some activities (I'm a scuba diver and hair drastically increases buoyancy when it exists in this kind of quantity), but otherwise it would be fun and interesting. Temperature would cease to be a real issue for many, especially in the colder regions of the world.


Personally, I would love to have the fur of a wolf. Short, but not too much so.

Title: Re: possibilities and implications of having fur
Post by: kivabunny on November 26, 2011, 02:32:29 AM

yes i would pick wolf fur too, do you think it would be possible to graft fur on in place of skin?

Title: Re: possibilities and implications of having fur
Post by: Otebon Albrecht on November 26, 2011, 02:39:49 AM

Not an area that I've looked into much, but skin grafts are possible (dangerous and unrefined, but possible).


The idea of having fur is not far fetched. Logically, it should be possible for a skin graft to cover part of a human in fur. How modern medical science works kind of stops the operation though. As the process is so difficult to set up and perform, as well as dangerous to the patient, replacing all of the patient's skin would be a death sentence, even if the operation went well.


When one replaces 5%-20% of their skin, the operation can go smoothly. There is a danger of Graft V. Host disease (where the body refuses to accept the graft and attacks it like it would a foreign object or disease), but the danger is manageable with drugs. Once you go beyond ~30%, it just gets ridiculously dangerous.


For a full body replacement, the entire process would have to be redone to effectively eliminate Graft V. Host (maybe using the patient's genetic material to "grow" a pelt?).


Once that is conquered, you would have to deal with the whole "nerve reattachment" problem. Chances are, even if one did get a full fur suit, they wouldn't feel a thing through it...


Sorry, modern medical science sucks with that kind of thing...

Title: Re: possibilities and implications of having fur
Post by: kivabunny on November 26, 2011, 02:45:23 AM

well i saw this thing where they cured baldness by extracting root cells from hair follicles and cloning them, then re-implanting.

Title: Re: possibilities and implications of having fur
Post by: Otebon Albrecht on November 26, 2011, 02:48:21 AM

Sounds fantastic! Where did you find it? I would love to read / watch up on that.


(I'm a medical nerd... please forgive me...)

Title: Re: possibilities and implications of having fur
Post by: kivabunny on November 26, 2011, 03:15:23 AM

i cant remember for sure, but i think it was popular science [popsci.com] (don't worry im multi nerdly- bio-chemistry, electronics, physics, avionics, computers(mostly hardware still learning software), chemistry, inorganic chemistry,robotics(limited skills) , and wireless electronics.)

Title: Re: possibilities and implications of having fur
Post by: Aoren Deringer on November 27, 2011, 09:40:58 AM

A million and one problems assuming that we could still transfer chemicals through our skin... I believe I made a statement on that in the mainstream thread.
 
Either way implications could go far beyond medical. Most religions would not look kindly upon such restructuring of the human form (I'm looking at you fundamentalists/extreemists) because of the societal implications (which I consider moot). My faveorite example involves myself and a group of church goers... Keep in mind that this really did happen, and that I still have to see these people every week.
Now I'm an engineer, and as it turns out on very snobbish man is also interested in my field of choice. Now he had nothing to say about my weapons and computers research but when I mentioned my interest in biomechanics (and stated my "Technological holy trinity" hypothesis) he went off on me. How humans are not to "Interfere with gods work" and well, the word means "fatherless child"-ify the human race. Obviously he wasnt too well versed in the technology (He figured cybernetics could interfere with reproduction... As if it affected the DNA) but I was reemed out for nearly an hour. To my dismay most others in the general vicinity agreed with him. And these were just old presbyterians, I fear the reactions of the more devout...
 
Now it may not be quite the same but I believe this shows a nasty trend a fur graft might be the victim of. As such it may actually be a slight dangerous to have one... Not fun.

Title: Re: possibilities and implications of having fur
Post by: kivabunny on November 27, 2011, 12:27:30 PM

if i get the money , they can all kiss my fur-grafted butt.

Title: Re: possibilities and implications of having fur
Post by: Otebon Albrecht on November 27, 2011, 02:15:25 PM

Sorry to say (and I apologize for my very Hobbesian and Cynical view), but welcome to the human race Aoren Deringer. People fear what they don't understand and the gut instinct of every ANIMAL on this planet is to hate what it fears, hence the reaction you received.


Other than that, great point.

Title: Re: possibilities and implications of having fur
Post by: Sne on November 27, 2011, 03:51:44 PM

The talk about God's work is moot for me. The Bible doesn't say that humans were made physiologically perfect but simply kept in perfect bliss of ignorance and we noticed our flaws later via the Fruit of Knowledge. However God made it explicit that humans are given the power over all creatures. For me it's obvious that power has to include their genes.
Talking otherwise is not God's Word but just an opinion whether that power is used for good or not. As it doesn't harm anyone unwilling to take the risk, I think it's good.

Anyway, there are several possibilities I can see:
1. Artificial fur graft,
2. Cloned hair graft,
3. Skin graft,
4. Hormonal treatment,
5. Gene therapy.

There are also several qualities to look for:
A) External similarity - the closer the result is to real fur, the better,
B) Internal similarity - like self-repair capabilities, nervous system etc.
C) Safety - side effects and death can be a problem,
D) Availability - existing technology etc.

1. It is technologically possible (+D), the look would be perfect (+A), but there would be some internal issues most probably (-B), maybe the feel wouldn't be exactly right - hard to tell, because a hair is naturally dead too. The surgery would be difficult, but I don't think there would be any serious problems with it later except obvious heat exchange in hot climates and biologically indifferent materials should do the trick (+C). Chemical exchange doesn't seem to be a problem for me -- except you won't be able to use ointments and would be forced to apply a special doggy shampoo.
2. It is possible yet I'd guess far more pricey (+D), the look without additional measures could be not exactly what would be expected (those would be still hair; -A), but organism would be okay with it (+B). Same safety issues as above except the problem with materials (+C).
3. Life threatening (-C). Really, really bad idea.
4. Might give results just as 2 for less the price, but would surely cause serious side effects (-C).
5. It'd be organic (+B) and modified to look properly (+A), a bit dangerous (as everything); better have kids or at least keep some genetic material safe before doing that. It seems safer than 1 and 2 but I might have missed something (+C). However, there's no gene therapy developed for that issue yet (-D).

I probably missed some options or qualities and I'm not a biologist, so in general it's just a guess. Anyway, I'd think of 1 as the best option... and there's hope in the future (5).

Title: Re: possibilities and implications of having fur
Post by: Otebon Albrecht on November 27, 2011, 04:11:01 PM

Got some good points there Sne, but I have a question for you: What is your grading system? Is seems after every point you gave it a grade based on the A - F +/- scale. What are those notations supposed to mean?


Reading back through the posts, I now realize that when asked the question "how to get fur and what are the results", I immediately jumped to the "How" and the medical results. Sorry guys and gals, I am a bit scientifically minded. I see others have jumped to the social results, and I would like to expound on that.


Imagine, if you will, if we forgot all the medical pitfalls. As fantastic as it sounds, let's say that someone was able to build a process that ensured 100% safety and security with giving a human being fur and the ability to "become a furry" (as that is the real issue that I feel we are poking at  ;) ). This means that, suddenly, there is a cosmetic process on the market that allows humans to become something "else". What is the reaction of the world?


As the fundamentalists were already mentioned, let's start with them. I can't imagine them being quiet about it at all. Mass protests would occur world-wide to combat the "evil" of "tampering with the plan of (insert divine being / beings here)". That only deals with the people happy with simply yelling about it. What about those willing to firebomb a clinic that offers the "surgery" or a group willing to do physical harm to the doctors that perform the operation? I cite for example the multitude of anti-abortion groups that assault the doctors (not saying I support or oppose them, just using them as evidence of human reaction).


For the average person, it really could go either way. If enough "celebrities" (including law-makers, the military, and anyone in the public eye) get behind the idea and start adapting animal furs into their body, then it may become a new trend, thereby launching the "Fur-era" into a glorious new age. Without such public and popular support though, it would be seen as an abomination. Those that undergo the operation and maintain a normal life would be few and far between as most are harassed and mocked (if not worse) for their life style choice. As law-makers are notoriously slow to adapt to a changing society (citing internet security laws that took near to a decade to "catch up"), those that undergo the operation will not be protected, and may even be prosecuted by law as a few sly lawyers / judges / public officials in general may begin to cite these people as "non-humans" citing their lack of human attributes and modified genes as a new species.


Sorry to be such a downer, but I do have a low opinion of The Mob's reaction to something this ground-breaking...

Title: Re: possibilities and implications of having fur
Post by: Sne on November 27, 2011, 04:40:49 PM

Oh, those are not grades. It's just +D means that quality D seems to be present and -D means that it's not. As D is availability, -D means something is unavailable.

It's one of my 3 greatest dreams for everyone to be anything. (The other two are teleportation and infinite energy for all ;) ) It's pretty much the story of Surrogates (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0986263/), except there are no furries and there's a downer ending.

Fundamentalists are not really effective about anything as for most even a God-made gay is an insult to the God. Changing one's body is not a matter of life and death (like abortion). Let's not forget there are people who cut off their arms and others that graft them to themselves (http://news.softpedia.com/news/Man-Carries-The-Amputated-Arm-of-his-Twin-Transplanted-on-His-Chest-62115.shtml) and legally they're okay.

Also, don't worry about the new species thing. People after gene therapy won't ever become non-people. Just technically impossible :)

Title: Re: possibilities and implications of having fur
Post by: Otebon Albrecht on November 27, 2011, 04:59:43 PM

True, I'm not saying that one would become a new species.


I am saying that the common man, when faced with it, may come to that conclusion. If one person does, then the likely hood of it spreading dramatically increases until it becomes "fact" in the eyes of idiots.


It's fun how the rumor mill works in real life...

Title: Re: possibilities and implications of having fur
Post by: kivabunny on November 28, 2011, 12:50:40 AM

well, i could care less what the public thinks (so long as im not hunted for my differences of pelt)

Title: Re: possibilities and implications of having fur
Post by: [Sov] on November 28, 2011, 02:35:22 AM

You won't get very far in life with that kind of attitude, whitewolf. Being a rebel is fun and all, but it doesn't make you able to afford to live.

In this thread both the medical and social implications of having fur have been discussed, and my only thought is: It's not really turning you 'into a furry' it's more giving yourself fur, and still looking like a human, just a super hairy one. Of course there have been people (or at least on person that I know of) who have altered their image to become more animal-like. The case of The Lizardman, and do you know what he calls himself? How he makes his living? He's a self-proclaimed walking freak show. That's what people think of him, he's viewed as a freak, and that's how he makes his living. That's how anyone who gets fur would make their living in the world we live in, because we don't live in a world that it's socially acceptable to severely alter your image in any way. People with lots of piercings, or tattoos get judged. It's just how it is.

Title: Re: possibilities and implications of having fur
Post by: kivabunny on November 28, 2011, 03:00:24 AM

true but im a visionary(or at least i thionk i am)
i want to change peoples views on people that are different.
 

Title: Re: possibilities and implications of having fur
Post by: Puncia on November 28, 2011, 04:34:26 AM

This whole notion of humans with furry skin makes me think of this guy:

(http://i2.listal.com/image/1732385/936full-fur%3A-an-imaginary-portrait-of-diane-arbus-.jpg)

This is Robert Downey Jr. playing Lionel Sweeney in the movie Fur: An Imaginary Portrait of Diane Arbus (http://youtu.be/G2BQ6bhsaCE). It's a very good movie, mind you. But this is what I imagine we'd look like if we started to grow fur all over.

Title: Re: possibilities and implications of having fur
Post by: kivabunny on November 28, 2011, 06:49:25 AM

welli wouldnt want it long like that....lol funny thought...imagine a trip to get a haircut  XD

Title: Re: possibilities and implications of having fur
Post by: Otebon Albrecht on November 28, 2011, 06:51:35 AM

That may be the point... we really have gotten off topic...


That is a terrifying picture by the way...

Title: Re: possibilities and implications of having fur
Post by: Puncia on November 28, 2011, 07:32:26 AM

I wouldn't say it's off topic, as it shows and brings forth some of the downsides of having furred skin as a human.

Quote from: whitewolf on November 23, 2011, 06:17:45 PM

we were all discusing how it would be possible to have fur grafted on or have your body geneticly re-engineered to have fur,and the consequences/benefits

Title: Re: possibilities and implications of having fur
Post by: kivabunny on November 28, 2011, 07:41:07 AM

whats your opinion puncia?
 

Title: Re: possibilities and implications of having fur
Post by: Sne on November 28, 2011, 04:59:03 PM

Hey now, everyone would look bad if not hairdressers and barbers ;) That guy is no exception. Make it shorter on the face, leave the beard and mustache of course, and give him a nice haircut et voilà. The skin patches around eyes do look kinda terrifying though.

Title: Re: possibilities and implications of having fur
Post by: Puncia on November 28, 2011, 06:28:20 PM

My opinion is that scientists should be allowed to experiment with it and develop what they want, hopefully making new discoveries as they go along. We are already growing huge patches of skin in labs after all and maybe it would lead to a discovery with organ transplants?

As to the people that might do it to themselves, I wish them the best of luck and hope they're not stupid. It will probably be dangerous and could kill them. It will also make them a freakshow and lessen their chances of having a normal life. It's their choice.

Title: Re: possibilities and implications of having fur
Post by: darryldemented on November 29, 2011, 04:30:47 PM

provided the procedure was research and made very safe and somewhat affordable i guess it would be ok but you would as others have said be called a freak not to mention not be able to get a real job and people would laugh at you but that's the same with anything new even piercings and tattoos were considered stupid at first and now everybody and their brother has one. you would just have to get enough people interested in it (wonder which celebrity would be for it first haha) maybe a member of congress the dahli llama (can spell that sorry)

but at the rate science is advancing id say in another 20 years or more it might even be possible
(my boyfriend would kill me if i did so haha)