The Furry Forums
Furry Chat => General => Topic started by: ZombiezuRFER on October 08, 2011, 05:33:49 PM
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What are your thoughts, feelings, ideas, and warnings about transhumanism? Please keep discussion and debates friendly.
I plan on becoming a form of transhuman by transplanitng my brain and spinal cord into either an anthropomorphic Spinosaurus or full Spinosaurus body.
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I believe transhumanism will not go in the way of making any anthros (well at least to begin with). I subscribe to the idea that transhumanism will take place first as life extension treatments and then later alterations to improve upon the human body.
In the novel Brave New World transhumanism was used in order to class humans into different genetic "castes". While I believe this will not exactly be the thing that will happen, we will begin manufacturing perfect human beings to begin with. Which I am in favor of :3
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If transhumanism were simply life extension, than wouldn't the radical body modding be something like a trans-trans-transhuman? We already increase lifespan with prosthetics and medicine, but I can see the most radical expansion being the gradual brain uploading.
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transhumanism begins with life extension and such. we are already in a state of transhumanism by altering the human body like we do. I do see that you're more interested in more far-off dreams of transhumanism though, and that I can appreciate.
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Perhaps not as far off as you may think. It would be a surprisingly simple, if dangerous, procedure to transplant the brain and spine into another body. The main problem, however, is just retaining consciousness, but I believe that can be done by using sterile environment, moving the entire skull and spine with brain hooked to special IV set, and cutting out the brain and spinal cord and planting them into the new body. More than likely, it is not a surgery a human could directly participate in.
I feel that once that is done, the transhumanism we see in scifi will pretty much have arrived, as a sort of singularity (singularity as in where previous generations will be unable to comprehend the new technology) The brain and spine transplant would need some hefty amounts of genetic engineering and computer engineering just to be able to use the new body.
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This is an interesting thread as I've never really heard of transhumanism! Although it sounds interesting, I do hold some reservations. I feel it could be pushing science a bit too far and the thought of perfecting the human race does not really sit well with me.
In the novel Brave New World transhumanism was used in order to class humans into different genetic "castes". While I believe this will not exactly be the thing that will happen, we will begin manufacturing perfect human beings to begin with. Which I am in favor of :3
What KangaDrake says is actually where I feel most uneasy. The movie Gattaca portrays a world where people could pay for their children to be genetically perfect. However, regular humans are treated as inferior while those who are genetically superior have to deal with the psychological torment of having to be perfect. If genetic manufacturing does become available it seems that it could have some unpleasant consequences.
Also the procedure ZombiezuRFER describes sounds incredibly dangerous. In this case, I ask is it really worth the risk?
Just my thoughts though.
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The procedure is only worth the risk to those willing to go through with that.
Transhumanism isnt the perfection of the human race, as you can't perfect it. Transhumanism is, to put it bluntly, going beyond the confines of simply being human. Life expansion does that, even computers make you transhuman, but now transhumanism is relegated to the body and mind more or less.
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id become a cat
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The size of the animal is typically inverse to the time it will take to develope the technology to become it. To become a cat, you'd probably need to "robotify" your brain first, and then the cat is given a computer for a brain. Essentially, to become a cat and retain your entire intellect, the only way would be to have that cat as an RC body, but that means that you could also use various bodies too.
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I've read some pretty interesting stuff on cat research and how their brain works. In essence they're just as smart as monkeys and rats, but because their brain works so differently, they are not very good problem solvers. They are excellent at what they do (evolved into) but they're just too different to compare to a human brain that it's impossible to say if they're "smart" in our sense.
Presented with a string they have to pull to get the treat on the other side of a glass wall, they usually get it right. Though with two strings where only one has a treat they only get it 50% of the time. If the strings are crossed, they always choose the wrong one.
But they also show extremely good memory and adaptability. direct vocal communication with humans is not uncommon either. (Tell them to come to bed by sitting and meowing at their face, if it's passed their regular bedtime, etc.)
Which is maybe a bit out of topic here but if you put it in context with the original topic I think it's interesting and a thing to keep in mind with transplants.
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Case and point in our world I'd never become any sort of animal with a human brain, thing I could legally become someone's pet and be their slave D:
Though in seriousness, I just think strongly traditional people would not react well to it in any way at all and anyone who does it would become another target of oppression. Then on to the "usefulness" side of things, unless you are retired you aren't exactly going to be able to do much of anything productive anymore... so I have no idea how you would make a living.
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the first step of transhumanism will be improving standards of health and such, which I support. at this point in time messing with human and animal DNA doesn't seem...practical
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Though in seriousness, I just think strongly traditional people would not react well to it in any way at all and anyone who does it would become another target of oppression. Then on to the "usefulness" side of things, unless you are retired you aren't exactly going to be able to do much of anything productive anymore... so I have no idea how you would make a living.
Transhumanism is when rights are shifted away from being exclusively human, to exclusively sapient. Arguably, that means that many birds will have rights too, but that's besides the point. As of now, so long as a transhuman is a novelty, it would probably be lucrative to just live your life like an animal in a zoo, albeit doing whatever you want. The first transhumans will undoubtedly be media sensations, and so turning you house into a zoo, you as its exhibit, would get you some money.
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this experiment was conducted in a smiler way be for, it was scuffle but the test subjects died with in a few day. the experment was done with two diffrent monkyes, there heads where both transplanted. the monkeys sirucome to starvation as far as i know. but if this dose become a reality where would the line be drawn for what is human and what isn't?
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Monkey head switching is sure to result in failure, as switching the ENTIRE head is generally a worse idea than just pulling out your brain and spinal cord.
To draw a line between what is human and what is not would be idiocy once transhumans run amok, because what about brain uploading? Essentially, brain uploading means that the person is no longer human, but an AI. So the distinction of human and non human becomes extremely stupid. Probably it will be a religious superiority thing, but the real distinction is sapience from non sapience.
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How would the transfer of the circulatory system work? If you transfer the brain and spinal cord, which are both full of veins with your body's specific blood type in it, and then transplant it into say- an animal's body- AI or whatever what is the blood supply that will keep the brain and spinal cord alive? Also, transplanting a human brain into an animal's body is essentially killing the animal, unless the animals body is completely AI or animatronic....in which case it could be like the matrix up in this planet.
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I don't have an interest in being anything other than human, and the idea of becoming "more" than human just doesn't appeal to me. Even if the option were available, I wouldn't take it. I'm comfortable in my human body, and although I love animals, I'd never be one or want to look like one.
Although it'd be cool for people who feel trapped in their current bodies, it's just not something I'd personally want to do. And honestly, if I met some sort of "trans-species" human-animal, I would avoid them. It creeps me out. So...I mean, I'm not against it or anything, but it's too out there for me, since I'm comfy just pretending to be a squid or porcupine on the internet.
If I may ask though....how exactly would one get into the body of an extinct animal within this lifetime?
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A thread I like.
I believe we should extend the capabilities of us humans.
Imagine the possibilities, being able to carry large things with precision, storing all the human languages in your head, becoming more intelligent, More precise, not needing to sleep, becoming practically immortal and so on.
What this, your kidneys stopped working? We'll swap them with a better artificial one that cleans the body better!
Binoculars and night vision? Haha, Eye implants.Driving in the dark.
Accidents caused by people being drunk or tired behind the wheel? Always awake and being sober by pressing a button.
It all sounds crazy, but one day enhancements like this will be possible.
Interactive Bionic Vision (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MlQNWP0Jp-4#ws)
It's slowly beginning.
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It's practically begun to start already. Artificial limbs are almost to the quality (minus synthflesh) of Star Wars cybernetics. Luckily, ours won't inhibit our force sensitivity.
Ultimately, however, its going to be the organic limbs that are better, as they are just as mechanical as any cyborg, with the added ability of self repair, and Germ Line control (passing on your modifications)
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A thread I like.
I believe we should extend the capabilities of us humans.
Imagine the possibilities, being able to carry large things with precision, storing all the human languages in your head, becoming more intelligent, More precise, not needing to sleep, becoming practically immortal and so on.
What this, your kidneys stopped working? We'll swap them with a better artificial one that cleans the body better!
Binoculars and night vision? Haha, Eye implants.Driving in the dark.
Accidents caused by people being drunk or tired behind the wheel? Always awake and being sober by pressing a button.
It all sounds crazy, but one day enhancements like this will be possible.
Interactive Bionic Vision (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MlQNWP0Jp-4#ws)
It's slowly beginning.
You should play deux ex:human revolution
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what a fun little topic.
this is just one of those topics that people kinda see happening just not fully until it hits them smack in the face. for example i think our "expected" life exptency is about to jump to around 100..of course thats saying the tech is open to everyone and afforadable
the real issue is not so much transhumanism but the idea of being post human. post human is exactly what it sounds like, if we ever reach this stage we wont be the human race we are today or once where in the past(respectivly). we will be something entirely diffrent for better or worse...im hoping for better :)
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Well, if you become transhuman enough, and everybody follows the same route, wouldn't we end up in a post human time? It may in fact be possible to become a posthuman even after being a human once.
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one problem with moving into a different spiecies body is the fact they don't live as long as humans one day we will see that when we mix cat DNA with human DNA the person born with it sometimes has a shorter life span basically we will have to cure death by old age first.
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Old age doesn't really cause death, tissue degeneration does. Telomeres regulate cellular lifetimes, and that translates to the lifetime of the whole animal as well. So, telomere regulation using proteins (I forget their name right now) prevents telomere degeneration, and can even extend those telomeres. The problem with it currently, is that telomeres are also the cause for cancer (Telomeres stop degenerating and cell become stuck in its multiplication stage) So, that problem can be dealt with, and furthermore, if a body becomes too old, the magic of being able to transfer into the new one is simply re-used! So, constant body swapping and upkeep of the nervous system is a way to live forever! How exciting!
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Post- and Trans-humanism are really cool concepts, with a lot of fairly realistic possibilities theorised. Plus, it creates some really interesting fiction!
I think it's really a gradual thing that's already happening. I'm pretty sure any sort of 'singularity' in which things happen suddenly and explosively would require some pretty unique circumstances, and probability suggests things are just going to continue progressing gradually. Certain scientific advancements could have major sudden social impacts. Then there's also the artificial limitations currently imposed by money - anything that suddenly makes stuff cheap and/or easily attainable removes opportunities for business. So we're being technologically and medicinally held back in a lot of ways to protect business. Anyone who argues against it is threatening societal collapse. "Do you want people to lose jobs? Do you want the economy to crash?" That always comes up when you talk about these advances we could make right now.
As for what's already happening, and what's likely...we've already pointed out prosthetics. Which are advancing definitely, that *does* make money, and is a recognized medical need.
Also look at tatoos, piercings, and other body mods. Looked down upon by a lot of people, but still popular. Then there's the few people, like Stalking Cat, who take body modding further for a personal purpose.
Then there's the argument that even external, non-invasive aids like glasses are post-human. And there's all sorts of similar technology that could take it further. You could make adjustable glasses and not need to get a new perscription, but again with money, as well as the real argument that someone could damage their vision further by not adjusting their eyewear properly. Then again, people do such damage anyways with old pairs of glasses, not wearing glasses when they should, or not going to the eye doctor often enough. This would be the same, only with more personal control - and less financial expendature.
And then, computers. And smartphones. On one end, we're seeking increasing immersion through 3D and VR overlays, though it's still difficult to make this more than a cool gimmick right now. On the other, we're going for increased portability, and having the same instant-access on the go that we have at home. Memory enhancement, updates on far away events, many encyclopedias worth of knowledge, distant communication with audio *and* video. (Though videophoning isn't quite as popular as it was forecasted to be a la the jetsons, it's still there - more cool gimmickery.)
Basically, we have a lot more capability than we're using, but what we are doing is growing for both entertainment and real need, seperately. What's popular gets more attention.
When adding more animalistic features to yourself is easy enough, and the popular image is running out of other directions to go, it'll show up more commonly. In small ways at first, and then the more drastic examples. Stalking Cat and the Lizard Man (for two completely different reasons) are very early adopters, and a lot of people stil think it's totally wrong for them to even be *able* to get those modifications - like there's something morally wrong with it. Eventually, it'll probably be just the latest punk thing. And no doubt furries will still go further with it than the average punk - while still not being very punk themselves.
What do I expect to happen?
1) Prosthetics will continue to improve, including organs, limbs, and sensory organs - along side lab-grown naturals.
2) Life-extention techniques will become more viable, at the same time as we have to battle increasingly volatile diseases.
3) Genetic experimentation on humans will continue to be treated as morally dubious, but when somebody goes and does something illegal that has some benefit, they'll be punished, yet the benifits will be used medically. Look at nazi germany. This will continue to slowly advance us, and slippery-slope us into being more willing to do such things in the future.
4) Body-mods for entertainment purposes will become slowly more outlandish. I can't wait until we find in the news that somebody replaced their real working limb with a prosthetic just for kicks - and the moral and legal battles that ensue. Similar for added limbs - although a working tail would just be considered freakish, probably not as scandalous as someone *removing* limbs in favor of machinery.
5) Technology that we can actually make now will slowly be released as the *true* problem is solved - how to milk as much money out of it as possible. Make it rely on some re-fill, break down after awhile, or otherwise be expensive and difficult. How to add legal trouble to modding it or making it yourself for cheap.
6) Eventually we'll collapse anyways, have more wars, and new countries, and who knows what that'll do to technology. Improve it in some ways, regress it in others. Regardless, the rest still applies, just its speed and focus changes with massive political-economic changes.
I personally believe genetically manufactured people, full-body transplants, full I/O brain-computer interfaces, and other dangerous/morally challenged (by society, not neccessarily me) technologies are still quite far off, with a lot of smaller changes, and probably some big global changes too, before they come near.
I'm guessing cryogenics will be improved before any of that stuff is. I think BCIs have the best chance, and still, they'll get problems and become restricted.
In the mean time, we just slowly build off what we have, and oversell each small step we make.
Until we fall apart, or unless someone succeeds at changing everything without collapse.
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Old age doesn't really cause death, tissue degeneration does. Telomeres regulate cellular lifetimes, and that translates to the lifetime of the whole animal as well. So, telomere regulation using proteins (I forget their name right now) prevents telomere degeneration, and can even extend those telomeres. The problem with it currently, is that telomeres are also the cause for cancer (Telomeres stop degenerating and cell become stuck in its multiplication stage) So, that problem can be dealt with, and furthermore, if a body becomes too old, the magic of being able to transfer into the new one is simply re-used! So, constant body swapping and upkeep of the nervous system is a way to live forever! How exciting!
hehe i like that highlander style revalation (its a movie about a Scottish immortal guy)
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hehe i like that highlander style revalation (its a movie about a Scottish immortal guy)
Heh, I was typing it out while thinking... Deadly combo, no?
Also, I found out what the furry transhumanists who wish to become RL Furries are called: Biofurs. Woot for biofurs!
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hehe i like that highlander style revalation (its a movie about a Scottish immortal guy)
Heh, I was typing it out while thinking... Deadly combo, no?
Also, I found out what the furry transhumanists who wish to become RL Furries are called: Biofurs. Woot for biofurs!
there was a scam a few years ago where some troll established the "Biofur Institute" that would make you a RL fur through...well he never really said...tons of people lost money that way
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I know there was Furnetics as well, although I gotta say it looks freaking amazing compared to the single webpage it originally was.